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I think it has reached a point where it bears discussion... |
Geeky Tiki
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Oct 15, 2002
Posts: 533
From: Las vegas
|  Posted: 2005-11-21 2:14 pm Permalink
Wow, I feel like I'm watching a debate about whether Han Solo shot Greedo in self defense or if it was murder.
I'm glad some people here aren't in charge of determining what constitutes authentic sex.
(Edited for spelling "self" wrong!)
[ This Message was edited by: Geeky Tiki 2005-11-21 14:16 ]
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Thomas
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 372
From: Lake Mojave
| Posted: 2005-11-21 3:27 pm Permalink
I think for me artifacts such as a carving are interesting mostly for what they say (or seem to say, in my eyes) about the person who chooses to create and/or own and display them. Their interest and value is inseparable from the person with whom they are associated. Of course, there is intrinsic value -- the labor and passion and expressiveness that went into it. And market value ("Wow, that looks like a $1,000 tiki carving!"). And historical value perhaps.
I'm no art theorist so I'll go no further on that as I feel like I'm on shaky ground already. The point I'm trying to make is that I think I could look at one tiki carving at one person's house and say to myself,
"This person seems to be really into traditional polynesian art. That's great!"
Somewhere else, it might be,
"This person seems to be emulating great polynesian pop carvers from decades past. That's great!"
Somewhere else,
"I have a feeling this person is a real partier, and might be a Parrot Head. That's great!"
Sure, I'll identify more with one person's style than with another's, and this might signal to me that I would find more in common with A than with B. But I consider this a subjective "ranking," so to speak, and not an objective assessment of the value of the art. I leave those questions to others. I don't have the analytical toolbox for them, nor the inclination to spend the time required to develop one. Without apologies. I do own and read materials like "The Book of Tiki," for enjoyment. I can't bring myself to call it "research," in all honesty.
For me, the artifacts derive their significance to the extent that they reflect upon the person. The person is the only tiki god in the room. The images are kind of like varied, secondary manifestations of the person.
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Brad 'The Beachcomber' Owens
Tiki Centralite
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 97
From: Augusta, Georgia
| Posted: 2005-11-21 7:51 pm Permalink
"Authentic sex" very funny
BO
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motiki
Tiki Centralite
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 67
From: New Joisey
| Posted: 2005-11-21 8:31 pm Permalink
When I was a vendor at Hukilau 05 I was amazed at the number of people who attended and said they were not registered on TC. This is a primo example of why. I guess I do Tiki outsider art because I have no formal art training and yeah my first mask I carved was a chicklet tooth. And you know something, I love that mask and wouldn't sell it for any amount of money. I will post it on creating tiki shortly and I hope it inspires one person to give it a try. If it does then it will be worth any negative comments.
I thought that was what the spirit of "Creating Tiki" was all about, to inspire others to create Tiki. I didn't realize we had to conform to the masters ideas. Did the original carver of Tiki have a book to go by, or did he just carve what he saw in his mind as Tiki? If you hang out at "Creating Tiki" and you create something you consider Tiki, post it. I personally would love to see it.
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KuKuAhu
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
Posts: 567
From: Kahiki, Ohio
| Posted: 2005-11-21 9:06 pm Permalink
Okay, I'm not going to let these two diamonds get scuffed into the dirt of this bloated and ridiculous thread without calling attention directly to them.
Number one:
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On 2005-11-20 18:41, Brad 'The Beachcomber' Owens wrote:
In closing I would remind all of you “experts” and “purist” out there that once upon a time you didn’t know shit about tiki. And just because you are an aficionado now about what tiki WAS doesn’t make you right about where it is, or should be going. Just keep that in mind before you go casting stones around these forums.
Tiki is supposed to be fun, RIGHT?
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Well put Brad. I'd say a person willing to take on the massive risk of opening a full on traditional tiki bar trumps most others at this asinine "tiki-er than thou" game.
Number two (and it is a two-parter):
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On 2005-11-21 10:11, laney wrote:
Seems to me a thread like this comes around every year.....be it having to do with collecting, events, or creating, I am tired of the "I'm more tiki then you" flame wars....yawn
God forbid a professional Interior Designer come into my living room.....first to go would be my beachcomber lamps, Witco bars, and tacky whisky barrel couch. But I love it...
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On 2005-11-18 14:32, bigbrotiki wrote:
I have to be very careful with any critical utterance, as it might be taken as if Zeus is hurling a lightning bolt at a mortal.
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Are you kidding me Sven? Zeus?
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Laney, you are my hero. If we ever meet in person your first mai tai is on me.
Ahu
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Tiki Diablo
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jun 24, 2002
Posts: 1916
From: socal
| Posted: 2005-11-21 9:33 pm Permalink
Sven, Zeus? Yes, Definitely! End of story as far as I'm concerned. Hi Laney, where the heck ya been?
BK isn't an elitist , just a straight shooter.
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11604
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
| Posted: 2005-11-22 07:40 am Permalink
Look boys and girls, I was not beating my chest here and yelling "I am Zeus !!!". I was merely saying that if a person that was a fan of my book and thus inspired by it to create "Tiki" (I believe there are some out there?) would get an unfavorable reaction from me personally, they might take it kind of hard, and that I have to be sensitive to that.
Am I wrong about that? To me it's a logical deduction of the fact that my book simply defined "Tiki" as a pop culture style (emphasis on POP!), while before it had not only been completely forgotten (except by some early Tiki hunters and collectors), but never been recognized as an art form in it's own right.
I am not saying that that makes me the god, or sole originator of the Tiki revival, or that I own any of it. But as a major source of inspiration, I am an ambassador of it, a disciple of "Tiki- god of the artists", that enjoys to spread the gospel (and the gospel is..? : "If it says Tiki on it, it should have Tiki in it!"  ).
So, sometimes I too get sick of all this do-gooder positivism and "art is free" activism in the face of Tiki blasphemy  , and believe that a little constructive criticism a la BK could be beneficial, and should not be taken so personal. But alas it is, so the best way to teach is by doing, and not negating.
YET !!!!!, that irritation is just a minute blip on the screen in comparison to the overwhelming sense of creative power that Tiki has unleashed, and that amazes me every day, even when I am faraway in un-Tiki lands, and that I want to thank each and every one here on Tiki Central for.
And always remember kids, it's just a fun little game we are playing.
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Swanky
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5319
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
| Posted: 2005-11-22 11:00 am Permalink
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On 2005-11-22 07:40, bigbrotiki wrote:
Look boys and girls, I was not beating my chest here and yelling "I am Zeus !!!". I was merely saying that if a person that was a fan of my book and thus inspired by it to create "Tiki" (I believe there are some out there?) would get an unfavorable reaction from me personally, they might take it kind of hard, and that I have to be sensitive to that.
Am I wrong about that?
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Nope. I remember back when did Hukilau the first time and you and King Kukulele were going to be there. We were just rather freaked out. Now we know you and you are indeed a human, though not "normal." I'm not sure about King...
You know, at first I was rather worried that the topic was causing a "rift" here and people were peeved and maybe leaving. Now, I am not sure how to take it.
I encourage everyone interested to grab a chisel or brush or pen and try their hand at it. But, this is Tiki Central and not Carving Central as Humu points out. I believe in encouraging all the artists here in trying and doing. Make your vision of tiki. I just don't really know where the line is. I do think if you keep your nose in BoT you will see the line pretty clearly.
However... This board also praises the new Pizz mugs and we have news of things at Spencers and Big Lots. We can say it sucks, but then, you never know. Some Spencers stuff has been pretty cool and I dare say those lighted Moai are in a lot of our bars.
Maybe it's time for a split. And it may happen by itself. Vintage Tiki Central and Current Tiki Central.
I see far more people collecting current mugs than vintage ones around here. Right now we encompass both ends of the spectrum. Maybe we just need to avoid the things off the spectrum. Now where is that line?
_________________
"Mai-Kai: History & Mystery of the Iconic Tiki Restaurant" the book
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Digitiki
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 756
From: L.A. baby!
| Posted: 2005-11-22 11:12 am Permalink
Being a musician for many many years, all of this reminds of the debate in the jazz community back in the 80's and 90's between so called "jazz purists" and then widely popular "pop jazz" as I call it. The debate rages on against hard core jazz players and jazz lovers that preach what jazz is with a fervor that would make Torquemada bow out - the belief that jazz is what it was (i.e. Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, swing feel, no electronics). Those people would shreik against ANY new direction that jazz or pop or the conversion of the two was taking. The irony was that jazz, by its very nature is interpretive, evolutionary and imporvisational.
I am also reminded of a thread some time ago about the popularity of tiki. As with any subject there are different sides and variations on viewpoints. There were people who lamented the the fact the tiki was becoming popular - of all things.
It seems, from being on TC for some time now and reading the Book of Tiki and all, that TIKI is actually 2 different things- the classical/historical and the pop-culture/improvisational. It should definately be pointed out that the Polynesian pop tiki styles that many have come to see as the embodyment of Tiki style were once improvisations on a theme as well. I see TIKI as I do everything else in our lives like visual art, music, food, architecture and even language - it is alive and constanctly changing like jazz. There will always be those that want to keep a firm hold on where we've come from and that is just fine. There will also be those who wish not to look back and venture forward and that is fine too. There will always be those that fall somewhere between the two extremes and that is just fine. Like jazz and language, Tiki will continue to evolve so long as it is alive. And I'd rather have it alive and evolving rather than relegated to a closed chapter in history.
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teaKEY
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Nov 09, 2004
Posts: 3683
From: The thumb !
| Posted: 2005-11-22 11:21 am Permalink
The current of today is the vintage of tomorrow. Will older stuff from the current tiki central be moved into the vintage tikicentral when it gets a little older?
I think that this thread got people back to post but now lets take that heat and place it under other tiki talk. I see the creating tiki has the energy and its growing larger than the other areas at the moment. Totally a good thing for us and tiki. Now maybe we should add some warmth to collecting. The three post down is like five days old (maybe not, but seems to be)
I got my camera back, be on the look out.
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chisel slinger
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Feb 23, 2004
Posts: 263
From: columbus,ohio
| Posted: 2005-11-22 12:43 pm Permalink
I think the onslaught of winter may be bringing out the worst in us. or maybe it is just years of tongue biting. but for now for some reason I feel like pitching a bitch, and I know its not the right thing to do. so I'm just gonna shut my godamn mouth. oh yeah, me and the wife just bought a truckload of vintage tiki lamps and ephemera from the kahiki today. this makes me happy.
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motiki
Tiki Centralite
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 67
From: New Joisey
| Posted: 2005-11-23 4:42 pm Permalink
Old Tiki new Tiki it's still Tiki. If you don't like it keep it to yourself. Putting other people down for creating their vision of Tiki and telling them they don't belong here just isn't right. You can dance around it but that is exactly what was attempted here. People are here to expand their knowledge and skills and share their ideas with others. I for one will not be intimidated and will keep posting my gastly creations.
[ This Message was edited by: motiki 2005-11-24 07:37 ]
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MTKahuna
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 477
From: LB to LA, CA
| Posted: 2005-11-23 5:20 pm Permalink
When all is said and done...
Tikis decay; words last.
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I dream of tiki
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 500
From: Pittsburgh, PA
| Posted: 2005-11-23 5:57 pm Permalink
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On 2005-11-22 11:00, Swanky wrote:
You know, at first I was rather worried that the topic was causing a "rift" here and people were peeved and maybe leaving. Now, I am not sure how to take it.
I encourage everyone interested to grab a chisel or brush or pen and try their hand at it. But, this is Tiki Central and not Carving Central as Humu points out. I believe in encouraging all the artists here in trying and doing. Make your vision of tiki. I just don't really know where the line is. I do think if you keep your nose in BoT you will see the line pretty clearly.
Maybe it's time for a split. And it may happen by itself. Vintage Tiki Central and Current Tiki Central.
I see far more people collecting current mugs than vintage ones around here. Right now we encompass both ends of the spectrum. Maybe we just need to avoid the things off the spectrum. Now where is that line?
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Hmmm.....
We are definately seeing folks who appreciate the old and the new. So far, to me anyway, that mutual acceptance is the norm in our message board. Is that really so bad for the community and/or the culture? Do we really have to define the line at this current time in tiki culture?
Ok, time for a tangent.
If I were to ask that of myself, my own personal answer would be no. I have already defined it for myself and that's good enough for me. No one else has to agree with that definition. But then again, I felt the old and the new seem rather apparent. They either co-exist and/or are separated in some form of the world of each tiki appreciator I meet. I accept the terms of that person's vision and respect it, whether I agree or not.
If we are defining it, are we defining it for ourselves or the "great unwashed" of the world? If the answer is the latter, I feel its rather a lost cause. We can only educate one and a time, but the masses will do what they will in the end.
Carry on.
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11604
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
| Posted: 2005-11-23 7:30 pm Permalink
Old versus New Tiki? I think this is where this whole post went off on a tangent of misunderstood assumptions. To me, this post was never about defining Tiki, creating a black and white division, or saying "Old" is better. Tiki is too complex to try to limit it through worded definiton.
It was meant as a challenge. As there are more and more folks picking up the chisel/chainsaw, and more wood is churned into idol shapes, we see that it is harder and harder to create something unique...or, if uniqueness is reached, staying true to the art form. I know, beginners have to start somewhere, and that is fine. And uniqueness must not be everyone's goal, by all means. Looking at ancient Ku Tikis, adhering to one look was not necessarily seen as "wrong" in days of old!
Yet if one looks for creativity, there seems to be a certain amount of stylistic limitedness in SOME of the Tiki revival carvings. One could argue that the primitiveness/simplicity of Tikis does make them into a limited art form to begin with, so that the choices are finite. Here I always use the Moai example:
The most basic, simple design concept, forehead, nose, mouth. But change any of the three components by stretching or compressing, and amazing stuff happens. I have seen hundreds of interpretations, yet no two alike (well almost), but they are always recognizable as Moai!
But we are not Kahunas (talking about the old ones here ) forced to follow a pattern. Tiki, god of the artists, challenges us to go beyond our limitations and seek previously unused forms. In my understanding, what BK's initial post was suggesting was to look at the treasure trove of traditional Oceanic Art, just as the Polynesian Pop masters did, and realize that there is so much MORE out there that has not been tried yet.
Yet what to pick and what not is tricky, and a matter of balance, just as is the question of how far out the re-interpretation can go and still be Tiki. But don't ask me to define my idea of Tiki in words, I deal in visuals. I simply know when I see one.
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