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Tiki Central Forums Beyond Tiki The Film Noir Thread
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The Film Noir Thread
Atomic Tiki Punk
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Joined: Jul 19, 2009
Posts: 7048
From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2010-02-01 7:25 pm   Permalink

See I did not go crazy once, but I am just waiting for my chance....

As for Neo Noir, I find it interesting how it has found its way into Science Fiction & film
I first came accross an overt Noir influence in Cyberpunk Fiction, starting with William Gibson in the 1980's

Then at the same time in movies like Blade Runner & even more so in the Philip K. Dick book
which the movie was based on,"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep"
which is more of a Hard-boiled detective story with quite a bit of humor set in the future.

The 1980's was a golden age for the graphic novel which embraced Noir & Hard-Boiled fiction, Frank Miller started writing Sin City in the late 80's

a Very good example of this influence is "The Matrix"
I will leave listing others to another post.


 
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TikiHardBop
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Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 547
From: Rockledge, FL
Posted: 2010-02-02 07:33 am   Permalink

ATP: Thanks for the synopsis on hard-boiled pre-dating noir. For once, I refrained from going there. Being an engineer with a scientific background, I have a bad habit of wanting to put everything in its full context. If you ask me if the sun is shining, I tend to say "Well, we're going to have to go all the way back to the Civil War..."

John-O has a good point with the tiki analogy. Just because a bar has tiki torches and bamboo doesn't mean it's a classic tiki bar. I tend to look at films the same way -- just because it has noir elements doesn't mean that it's true noir. Most films people mention as "neo-noir" have elements of noir, mostly in visual style, but they don't fit the classic definition. For example, a common theme of Hitchcock's was the average, innocent man getting involved in the machinations of amoral characters. Although certainly a characteristic of noir, his films don't follow the classic noir pattern and are known as thrillers or psychological thrillers rather than noir.

Combining those two thoughts, film noir and Hitchcock have become so part of the "language" of film that it's probably impossible to even tell a morally dark story without referencing either one.

And I said "most" films with a PI or detective don't fit classic noir, not all. John-O's mention of the classic "Out of the Past" is a perfect example of a true film noir that features a PI.

And I have a hard time imagining "The Matrix" being noir. Actually, it's probably anti-noir. Neo (Greek for "new") is a classic savior character bringing order and morality back to a chaotic and immoral universe.

In the end, it (hard-)boils down to a case of battling definitions. Some people have a more strict definition than others. If Busby Berkley or "The Wizard of Oz" fits your definition of noir, go crazy.


 
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Atomic Tiki Punk
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From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2010-02-02 2:38 pm   Permalink

TikiHardBop,
I refer to only the first Matrix moive & only the story elements that take place "in the matrix.
Also watch how the scenes are composed visually, for some reason the directors choose to abandon this look in the following movies.


 
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TikiHardBop
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Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 547
From: Rockledge, FL
Posted: 2010-02-03 09:46 am   Permalink

Personally, outside of the wire work and the now cliche' "bullet time" photography, I find that the less I think about The Matrix, the better. Between Keanu's wooden acting to the moronic story ("farming" humans for power?), I could probably write a decent sized essay on how much I hate The Matrix. Which is a shame, because I loved, loved the Wachowski's previous film "Bound".

"You don't wanna shoot me, Vi. Do ya. Do ya? I know you don't."


 
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JOHN-O
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Joined: May 16, 2008
Posts: 2720
From: Dogtown, USA
Posted: 2010-02-05 1:44 pm   Permalink

I gotta agree with TikiHardBop on the Matrix, to me it's more of a Jesus allegory than anything else. For me, cyber-punk Noir begins and ends with "Blade Runner". How are you going to top that? It's just like with period Neo-Noir and "Chinatown".

ATP, does a Golden Apple veteran like you follow crime comics? (I refuse to use the term "graphic novel") I LOVE this series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_(comics)

Also if anyone is interested, the Nuart in West Los Angeles is having a British Noir festival this weekend:

http://www.british-weekly.com/?p=1138

I'm embarrased to admit this, but I've never seen "The Third Man". This looks to be a good opportunity.

And TikiHardBop, about Busby Berkeley being Noir... I was KIDDING.




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Atomic Tiki Punk
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From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2010-02-05 1:53 pm   Permalink

I have not seen that comic John-O, BUT YOU MUST SEE the Third Man!

 
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JOHN-O
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Joined: May 16, 2008
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From: Dogtown, USA
Posted: 2010-02-05 5:57 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2010-01-31 18:05, khan_tiki_mon wrote:

John-O - you know your movies. I agree with you completely on the "Sand Pebbles". That movie gets me everytime I see it. Has to be one of the most doomed characters ever. Okay, how about this one? "Lord Jim" with Peter O'Toole - happy ending or unhappy ending. The film ends with the death of O'Toole's character.


Nope, haven't seen it.

I'm gonna add it to my list, but to be honest, I'm not a big fan of Mr. "Larry of Arabia".


 
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Atomic Tiki Punk
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From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2010-02-05 7:05 pm   Permalink

Lord Jim is a good movie, but does not fall into the noir catagory.
The Third Man is listed as one of the best Noir, Spy Movies in alot of top 10 lists.

But it is just a great movie!


 
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khan_tiki_mon
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Joined: Sep 15, 2006
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From: Syracuse, NY
Posted: 2010-02-05 7:24 pm   Permalink

I didn't mean to suggest that "Lord Jim" has anything to do with film noir. It certainly doesn't. It was mentioned that their was a period in Hollywood where movies could be made without an obligatory happy ending. I was asking what people thought of the ending of "Lord Jim". Happy or unhappy?
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Atomic Tiki Punk
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Posts: 7048
From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2010-02-05 10:21 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2010-02-05 19:24, khan_tiki_mon wrote:
I didn't mean to suggest that "Lord Jim" has anything to do with film noir. It certainly doesn't. It was mentioned that their was a period in Hollywood where movies could be made without an obligatory happy ending. I was asking what people thought of the ending of "Lord Jim". Happy or unhappy?




I would say Heroic


 
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khan_tiki_mon
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Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 284
From: Syracuse, NY
Posted: 2010-02-06 06:29 am   Permalink

I would agree - heroic. When I first saw the movie as a youngster I really enjoyed it but I thought the ending to be unhappy. I saw the movie again many years later and I appreciated the ending much more. It's about redemption, commitment, and responsibility.
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TikiHardBop
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Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 547
From: Rockledge, FL
Posted: 2010-02-06 07:55 am   Permalink

John-O: I knew that. I was being funny myself.

 
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JOHN-O
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Joined: May 16, 2008
Posts: 2720
From: Dogtown, USA
Posted: 2010-03-23 6:15 pm   Permalink

Noir City is back at American Cinematheque !! That's the Egyptian Theater on Hollywood Blvd.



This year's gem is a restored version of "Cry Danger" (1951).....

"One of the most wicked and witty revenge yarns of the original film noir era is also an amazing tour of mid-century downtown Los Angeles."

http://www.americancinematheque.com/archive1999/2010/Egyptian/Film_Noir_ET2010.htm

And Rhonda Fleming is actually scheduled to be there !!

[ This Message was edited by: JOHN-O 2010-03-23 18:43 ]


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The Gnomon
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Joined: May 01, 2007
Posts: 1293
From: MD-DC-VA
Posted: 2010-03-26 08:19 am   Permalink

Does "Breaker Morant" qualify? I thought it was pretty noir.

 
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TikiHardBop
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Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 547
From: Rockledge, FL
Posted: 2010-03-26 10:27 am   Permalink

I'd put Breaker Morant in with (anti-)war films, along with Paths of Glory and The Naked and The Dead. The leitmotif of innocents caught in the machinations of war is strongly analogous to film noir. The important distinction is that noir usually centers around an innocent who makes a single moral lapse which leads to their downfall. War films tend to feature an innocent brought to ruin by the simple act of being in the military.

 
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