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Digital art discussion
THOR's
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 594
Posted: 2011-07-25 2:35 pm   Permalink

Thanks CHUCK!! Will do!!

 
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Gene S Morgan
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 18, 2011
Posts: 342
From: Midwest the navel of the USA
Posted: 2011-07-25 7:17 pm   Permalink

Thor..... Sculptris like other 3D software needs lots of resources. The more memory the better. But, also some computers are more suited for use for 3D. It is often due to the graphics card. My older laptop has trouble like yours. As others suggest, new drivers may help. But saving and restarting your computer may help because it starts things fresh with no other software running. It is not a program that plays well with others.

Your problem may be that you are just playing too long and the detail becomes more than your computer can handle. Your image is made up of triangles and when you sculpt more triangles are added. Before you do anything hit the W button. You can see the triangles now because that is the wireframe mode. You can go back by hitting the button again. Do some sculpting and hit the button again. Lots of new smaller triangles and the number at the bottom left of the page gets bigger. That number can get real big, maybe in the millions. The bigger it gets the more resources you use. By reduce I meant the two reduce buttons in the tools area. One can be used as a brush to reduce triangles in some areas. You lose a little detail that way, but not much if you do it carefully. With the other one you can reduce in a selected area. It is a little more work than I like doing, but cheaper than buying a new computer.

You can do what you would like to do with symmetry. Keep it on as long as you like and change it when you want to do some detail on one side or the other. You just can't go back. If you do the program will try to make everything symmetrical again and mess up all your work. Just make sure you are done with symmetry before you switch it off and you should be OK.

Cyber Clay ...... I like that ... and play dough ... I get that too .... Gene



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Badd Tiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 370
Posted: 2011-07-26 12:50 pm   Permalink

I posted this quite awhile back but I'll post again as this thread is relevant.

I've been 3d modelling for years and did this for a game called Zero Gear.




I have a track, based on an island, with tiki huts, palms, beaches, and a volcano shortcut/jump. I need to try and take some pics one of these days. Maybe I can dig something up...
--------

I've often had the discussions about 'is digital art real, does it have soul?', whatever.

Who's to say. I know when I did that stuff I really enjoyed bringing tiki into a game that a lot of people could play/experience. I enjoyed doing it, and it look a lot of time.

Sure, it's not as long lasting maybe. It's a more elusive art form. Especially for games. A game could be very popular today and never gets played again after next week. And my art isn't even that great.
But to say it's not art, that it doesn't take talent, well that's completely wrong imo. I could show off tons (of other peoples) work that just blows my mind, by the detail and creativity that is put into it.

If humans cause some huge breakdown in the system, nuclear apocolypse or something you're more likely to run into art that was painted or carved than digital art. But does that make it any more/less real? Does it have less soul because it's in electrons and not atoms.
Humans have souls and they are made of both electrons and atoms.
Does the soul come from the material/tools or from the human that poured their soul into the creation of it regardless the medium?


 
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Chuck Tatum is Tiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 1674
From: Southern Cailifornia
Posted: 2011-07-26 6:28 pm   Permalink

I was at the Tiki Highway show and got talking to "Von Franco" who has been doing digital art
for a little while now, with his permission to quote him here,

Von Franco: "Digital art has made me a better artist, I have done new things in digital media,
then gone back to traditional media and learned to reproduce the same effect or look in paint, I really am enjoying digital art"

He is a very cool guy with a open mind as an artist & who really enjoyed the challenge of new things.


 
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Sophista-tiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 13, 2005
Posts: 1707
From: Seattle WA
Posted: 2011-07-28 07:48 am   Permalink

http://www.acteva.com/booking.cfm?bevaid=222068

LA Center for Digital Art Juried competition


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Atomic Zombie Bastard
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Jul 28, 2011
Posts: 24
From: UK
Posted: 2011-07-28 09:57 am   Permalink

Hi all!

I'm new to the forum too -just signed up today after lurking for the last month. Think this is always a fascinating discussion and its great to watch people discovering and having fun with Sculptris.

Have to say i totally agree with all the points Gene made. I initially trained as a fine artist, then got into 3d -and now create the majority of my artwork in ZBrush (a more in-depth version of sculptris) and in other 3d packages (including photoshop) on the computer. It doesnt replace other forms of art for me, but as i work as a 3d character artist, i get to model, then paint up the characters on the computer - for me its a best of both worlds scenario. Even though its computer generated i try to make work that doesn't look obviously CG. At the same time I long ago became disillusioned with the high art/ low art divide that exists within the fine art world, because i don't believe its helpful to try to attach value judgements to different forms of art for there own sake. Ultimately i think its a shame to limit whats considered valid or acceptable because thats a path that can easily lead to artistic stagnation.

I think one of the main reasons that this sort of work has a reputation of being somehow of 'lesser value' is possibly because of the fact that a lot of the imagery you can find online is being created by amateurs without a grounding in art-history and art-theory. By its very nature the 3d community attracts a lot of teenage boys who are only just discovering and trying out what they're aesthetically into - tends to look awful, with fantasy orientated content -usually buxom females/aliens/fairies in small thongs, probably with a gun. (I call this style 'fan boy fantasy art wank'). I think its terrible, terrible stuff, but good for them! -i wouldnt begrudge another person their right to self-express, whatever their knowledge or talents - and of course everyone has to start somewhere. However, perhaps from the perspective of somebody glancing at the 3d community you might assume that's all there is to it. There is a high proportion of that sort of thing floating about, but then there are artists working in 3d that really knock your socks off. So i thought i'd post a couple of links up with some different examples for those who are interested:

http://www.scott-eaton.com/ -the guy is a master of anatomy
http://www.raycaesar.com/ -part of the lowbrow art scene - if you like Mark Ryden you may like this guy too.

I think theyre both great examples of 3d artists who show there really are no constraints when using CG.






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GROG
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 6838
From: Tujunga
Posted: 2011-07-28 10:10 am   Permalink

Welcome Atomic Zombie Bastard and thanks for your contribution to the thread.

 
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tigertail777
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 25, 2004
Posts: 665
From: Oregon
Posted: 2011-07-28 12:10 pm   Permalink

Been lurking round these parts for a long time, figured I should perhaps chime in once in a while and be more active. This particular topic is near and dear my heart so it is as good a place to start as any.

I personally do not like digitally created art for the most part, because most of the art I have seen is from people who have no background in using real world tools FIRST. While I agree that digital is another tool in the toolbox, it should not be the ONLY tool, just as "real world" tools should not be your only tool: you should always use the tools that make for the best piece of art. But I truly worry about the next generation of artists with less grounding in real world tools, it is perfectly fine if they can't master those tools I understand no one can master everything, but I think it is terribly important to have first hand knowledge of tools, especially if you are trying to emulate them in another medium. Let's face it most digital paint is trying to emulate the real world equivalent of oils, or acrylics or watercolors etc, but how can you possibly be true to the look of the medium if you have no first hand knowledge of it? You should know from personal experience how those tools handle, what they are capable of and not capable of or you will never get that emulation correct no matter how hard you try. If you have removed yourself from learning that step you are farther away from being true to the medium, and how many steps removed are you if you are copying the style of another digital artist who also may previously have had no real experience in what they are emulating? A copy of a copy degenerates with each copy, it is true in both digital and the real world.

Now all that is fine and good if you are not trying to emulate the real world equivalent and trying to instead invent a new medium, but if that is so then don't constrain yourself to the tenets of the old medium: you cannot be both and call yourself one or the other.

I have a degree in animation that I had hoped to use for drawing 2D animation with traditional methods of hand drawing frame by frame. But right before I graduated I saw the writing on the wall and wrote a final thesis of how 3D animation would be replacing the traditional hand drawn animation, and using more and more cheats like motion capture that look "okay" but do not have the mastery of form that drawn animation has always possessed. My classmates and the teacher all thought it was ridiculous to believe that the hand drawn animation would become extinct or nearly so due to computers and 3D animation, they pointed out that Disney at least would ALWAYS have hand drawn animation. My worries were groundless and I was a fool...or was I?

Now increasingly you will only find flash style animation even on TV, where the tweens are done by a computer that has no personal experience or knowledge of what it is trying to emulate. This would be alright if it was used only as a tool and the animator had the final say on how the final product looked, but it used as a tool to compress time, not to make for better art. So they rely on the "knowledge" of the computer to do tweens (drawing the frames between the key drawings) to save time, and I am sorry the result may be passable but is aesthetically terrible. Even the old APA, and minimalist animation like "Gerald Mcboing Boing" has more life to it, because the animators had hands on knowledge of emulating the real thing. Yes, they were using a minimalist shorthand to show that life but they knew the subject enough to capture it in those few "strokes". As I said, I think it is fine to use a computer for a tool, just be damned sure it is not the only tool in your box.

The one main thing however that I think terrifies most people about digital art, and some may not even be able to vocalize it they just "sense it" is the impermanence of the medium. How can you possibly save it in it's purest form for future generations and KNOW with certainty you have done everything possible to make it last? I have tried backing up art on burned DVD's and CD's both of which I have been told compared to original art have a relatively short life without making another backup. I know from experience the devastation caused by believing in the permanence of a backup and having it fail. I had some great photos from one of my few trips to Disneyland, ones I was very proud of capturing. I dutifully backed up those photos on not one but two DVD's believing that if one failed I would have the other. I lost a lot of irreplaceable
photos from that trip because BOTH DVD's on separate occasions developed a case of what used to be called "cd rot" where essentially a tiny tiny hole in the disc from manufacturing is there but can't really be seen, and every time the laser goes over it to play it, burns that hole bigger burning away data. I called the manufacturer of the DVD's and was told I got a "bad batch" how is that explanation going to replace my beautiful photos? I now have external hard drives crammed with my creations that I am terrified will fail. I have heard horror stories from fellow graphic designers about even the most high tech and latest hard drives failing so catastrophically that some of their art was lost permanently. And this is all happening in the same generation it was created! God only knows what will happen to it all farther in the future. Imagine all the art and knowledge that will be lost if it does. This is why I am very uneasy about going all digital for anything. At one time I wanted to be an archaeologist because I love old cultures and the creations from them, I love seeing the steps and humanity involved in how they lived and created. I also feel that in order to progress we must learn from the past. The idea of losing any of our history through our own laziness scares the living bejesus out of me. Any technology that is used solely for the compression of time is a bad one: witness the micro fiche that libraries became so enamored over that they tossed out entire collections and replaced them with a very substandard and degraded copy, to the point that some of those copies are really almost unreadable making the entire point of the idea moot. Now they are doing the same because of the internet: they reason that they don't need the books taking up the space anymore and can save time and money by having less people take care of them and all of that knowledge is on the internet anyhow. But where is the backup plan if something happens to the internet? Nothing is infallible especially something like the internet where webpages consistently come and go. What will happen to all the knowledge accumulated here on TC if it ever (God forbid) goes down?

When it comes to art, the best back up is the real thing: you can always make more copies off an original without much degradation, but the more copies you make of a copy the more degradation with each new copy until it may be quite far removed from the true original. Original art also in general ages far better than copies, even the highest standard of lithographs will age much faster than a properly cared for original.

Well that is my two cents.


 
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GROG
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 6838
From: Tujunga
Posted: 2011-07-28 2:59 pm   Permalink

And excellent points you made, too. Thanks.

 
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Gene S Morgan
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 18, 2011
Posts: 342
From: Midwest the navel of the USA
Posted: 2011-07-28 8:25 pm   Permalink

Selina ..... It is nice to have a real digital artist join this discussion. Your website is fantastic. I really agreed with your take on the cyber sculpture community. Most of the work shown in the Zbrush forum drives me crazy. I like your term ... "Fan Boy Fantasy Art Wank" .... But, the other side of that is that art to others who like what they see is still art. Is a person an artist if no one else likes what you do? I love fine art, but I also love primitive art as well. That is why I visit this site. I have created some sort of artwork for most of my life. I lack training, but I have lots of life experience. I have to create. That need dominates my life. But I am no artist. I like to think of myself now a days as a digital folk artist. Like I say "Is it art? I don't know, but I like it," I like the feeling of creating. It makes me feel alive even if it brings frowns to others .....

 
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MakeDaMug
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 28, 2002
Posts: 1182
From: behind a cluttered desk
Posted: 2011-07-28 8:42 pm   Permalink

What we're finding is that when we take the work of an arist and convert it digitally, we get a clean spot-on interpretation of the art. It's important that the art presented to us by the artist is represented in the finished sculpture, without interpretation. This is new for Tiki Farm... we are testing the waters with a few projects. I'd appreciate any/all feedback.

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Holden
www.tikifarm.com


 
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THOR's
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 594
Posted: 2011-07-29 08:14 am   Permalink

HOLDEN! OK NOW I see what you are referring to as "digital" art for mug aps! COOL!! This looks a lot like the stuff I am seeing done in z-brush and sculptress associated programs. Is that what made this or was it a Maya or other? NO question, an excellent tool for getting an image translated into multi dimension and built with that in mind.

I just had a few conversations with students up at Art Center a few day ago regarding all this stuff. The things up there they are creating are mind blowing. I may be back to teaching soon up there and will learn more as I teach and share what I can regarding design and storytelling in design. Digital and non. The one thing fully agreed is...the tool is no greater than the mind and idea it is guided by. If the idea or "story" is not strong and able to maintain that strength in the simplest of tools, no computer or fancy machine will make it better. You just end up with a "well polished chunk of visual noise" as one student phrased it. So, we have to explore the context.

You and I already talked on this mug, so I won't go into it too much other than if you are putting it out for open "critique" and want honest feedback in this thread my thoughts are this connected to digital context. I ask myself, What is the subject of the mug and is this telling as much of a story about the subject at first glace as possible? Is the shape and key feel doing this..before it has type on it? After that...digital art may come in and the process support a production in full dimension and support the digital tool's effectiveness. It doesn't mean more is better either. As a design problem given, it actually gets harder to boil down what makes an image or object capture a "story" or subject. "The Bahooka" to me is little round booths surrounded by aquariums, barrel lights, lots of raised grain wood textures with organic cut outs framing fish and and nautical charm. "Rufus" too...but as a character in this set work. I personally don't feel that just fish and the sea grass and bubbles and the large fish I just happen to know is Rufus cus I know the intent was that, speaks and captures "Bahooka" to me as best as it could be. Again, this is just an "artists critique" like I am used to doing and receiving and the intent is ONLY passion for an exciting "enchanting" design outcome.

I am anxious to see the prototypes on mugs sculpted this way though. If these can be put next to mugs created by human hands and hold up to the organic charm of the styles of the sculptors past that have set the standards on what we like about the look and feel of a mug. This is a fantastic tool in getting faster communication and process and I hope to see more!!

Have a great weekend all!
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Best way to reach me for art or questions directly is this link: https://www.facebook.com/tom.thordarson.3
OR Search on Facebook for : THOR ART


 
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GROG
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 6838
From: Tujunga
Posted: 2011-07-29 10:10 am   Permalink

Digital art makes easier to improve upon somebody elses art, too.


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THOR's
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 594
Posted: 2011-07-29 10:23 am   Permalink

HAAAAaaaaa It looks like you are on a Tiki "CRAWL" there Grog!! Hope Grog not get splinter in loin cloth and knee caps!! Thanks for helping me on this "digitally enhanced" edition! lol!
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Best way to reach me for art or questions directly is this link: https://www.facebook.com/tom.thordarson.3
OR Search on Facebook for : THOR ART


 
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VanTiki
Grand Member (6 years)  

Joined: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 1016
From: Hawaii
Posted: 2011-07-29 1:25 pm   Permalink

Okie Dokie!

I've been following this tread with interest, and figure it is about time I stop lurking and start conversing.
As many have already said - this is a big hot button topic in the art world - and I have experienced it many times in my career as an "artist".
First off - the whole scenario kind of reminds me of when I was stone carving in college. There were two camps back then in the sculpture studio: hand-chisel only, and pneumatic tools. Hand chisel folks felt that air tools took the soul and thought out of the work, and air tool guys took advantage of the speed the tool gave them, and the fact that it let them do more work. I was an air-tool guy. In fact, I feel if I went back in time and offered Michelangelo a compressor and a set of high grade carving bits the last thing he's do is refuse them because they lacked soul. I tend to think he'd embrace them because A) he was a businessman and needed to make deadlines on commissions, and B) he was a creator, and the tool would let him create more work in his limited time on earth. For me, digital art is very similar to the old stone-carver debate.

For those who don't know, the majority of my "day job" time is spent creating on a computer. I do illustration, animation, and game design for web, TV, and iPad/iPhone. I can tell you that I NEVER thought I'd be using a computer for art. It was old-school traditional media in college, and spent years in Hollywood making monsters with old-fasioned latex and silicone. It just turned out that I found I could create so much faster - and experiment so much more - on a computer when producing 2D art. Now, this comes with a variety of caveats. I'm producing commercial work - so time is of the essence, the work I'm doing is not meant to stand the test of time, etc. For many years I would do my preliminary sketches and boards on paper - but lately I find it faster to just draw everything on the computer. If the final work will be viewed digitally - it is easier for me to start digitally.

SO - does the digital work I do have "soul"? I dunno. I'd say the commercial nature of the work - not the digital medium it is created with - has more bearing on its artistic merit. I think digital image creating software is a medium just like paint, clay, or wood - and it is the way the medium is used that defines the work - not the medium itself. A few years ago I was teaching a digital design and animation class at a high school, and I asked the studio art teacher where my students work would be shown at the upcoming art festival. She looked at me with a puzzled expression and said, "oh, but that stuff isn't art." sigh...

Of course, as much as I love the computer, I still like to get my hands dirty with clay. Ceramics and metal casting has a permanence that digital work can never approach, and I love the idea that something I make will be around for many many years after I am gone. Sure - someday when 3D printers get a bit cheaper and the resolution gets a bit better, I'll get one and play with it, but only as a tool to bring my ideas out of my head and into the real world - just like pencils, photoshop, and a lump of clay.

Great thread, Grog!
Henrik "VanTiki"


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