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Tiki Central Forums ╗ ╗ Creating Tiki ╗ ╗ Other Crafts ╗ ╗ Digital art discussion
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Digital art discussion
Chuck Tatum is Tiki
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Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 1674
From: Southern Cailifornia
Posted: 2011-07-07 6:47 pm   Permalink

The Master speaks! since I have great respect and I also am a fan of Doug's work
I think his comments validate the digital art form.

If you think a computer replaces the artistic expression of a skilled artist, you don't know anything about computers.

I think this discussion is similar to the Vinyl vs Digital CD debate as opinion vs hard facts
collide etc.


 
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little lost tiki
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Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 7582
From: Orange,CA-right near the Circle!
Posted: 2011-07-08 08:12 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2011-07-07 18:47, Chuck Tatum is Tiki wrote:
I think this discussion is similar to the Vinyl vs Digital CD debate as opinion vs hard facts
collide etc.



i think all artists should stick with Vinyl!


By the way.....
Great rant,Doug!
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MadDogMike
Grand Member (6 years)  

Joined: Mar 30, 2008
Posts: 7318
From: The Anvil of the Sun
Posted: 2011-07-08 09:25 am   Permalink

Do you find that the undo botton, the layers feature, and the ability to do multiple saves allows you more creative freedom? In spite of your best planning, do you sometimes dramatically change your composition in ways that you could not with a traditional painting? ie reverse an element and move it to the other side?
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Zeta
Grand Member (2 years)  

Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Posts: 2049
From: Atlantis/Basque Country/Spain/Mexico
Posted: 2011-07-08 09:32 am   Permalink

CD is like bad acid.
Viva la Vinyl!!!

There's no Ctrl Z in real life.

Can you imagine?:
Michelangelo di Buonaroti giving the final touches of "La Pieta" when suddenly he fucks up and brakes Mary's marble nose?
--No problem. he thinks, I will just Undo it.

Not.

It's back to square one.


Somethings are impossible to reproduce. That's the whole mystery of art and creation. Nobody but Dali could paint like Dali.
No Dali filter.
Art is like a fingerprint. No matter how great technology gets. It will never beat your finger dipped into blood and into a white surface. That's the real thing. The print. The other will always be REproduction. Like Plato's cave, or something... I dunno. It's ok to use technology in your art if you can create that technology.
Just like I think it's ok to eat meat if you kill the animal yourself.

I dunno. I do know digitalization of everything is making a lot of artists unemployed and killing the culture I like, replacing it with a fake overproduced electronic one, that only benefits the media and not it's creators. Like facebook, google, etc...

Keep it simple, keep it real. That's my motto.
Luddites unite!!!

P.S. Swamp Fire, great speech.
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TikiG
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 1542
From: Riverside, California
Posted: 2011-07-08 10:06 am   Permalink

You know with all the discussion regarding digital vs traditional - I just thought about something interesting.

Digital today, in a visual and aural sense, is the standard of our modern time.

Digital is not strong in taste, smell or touch (at least at a pop consumer level at this time...can you imagine the future debates on the internet regarding digital taste, smell and touch?)

Thank God we're only talking visual and aural today!!

All art serves some kind of emotional response - even if its eventually thrown away in the trash.

The medium is in a sense just a window waiting for a reflection.
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THOR's
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Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 595
Posted: 2011-07-11 7:10 pm   Permalink

Man, oh Man....this subject for artist is pretty close to talkin' Religion and Politics! DANGEROUS! But have been hunched over both a computer and an drawing board for weeks and this is a perfect brain stretcher subject! lol!

I could write a 10 page speech on this subject, debating and supporting all these points. But I think what really hasn't been stated that is REALLY important is simply "CONTEXT". Artists know this. A certin "blue" changes it's appearance to the eye depending on what surrounds it...other color's saturation(brilliance), how it is lit, the values, hues...opacity...blah blah. Change any of these factors surrounding this "blue", the judgement of how we feel or "see" that color changes. Same with this subject.

My opinion on digital art is in this mind set above. It is a wonderful new tool..and it is also something "abused". It is both catalyst and crutch. In skilled hands..it expands new possibilities to a well trained artist in traditional art. It can also make a very unskilled artist able to make a very acceptable image..or a mediocre artist fabulous to many viewers who don't care how an image was made..they just react to the end product..etc.

Doug and other artist we know of in this "Tiki" Ohana are SKILLED ARTISTS. I see them work in many mediums..digital included. They understand strong fundamentals of creating an image and telling a story. So in that context, digital "paint" and design are just another tool. However, I feel Ernie (Grog's) frustration in a different context. Here's an example.

Not including drawing since I was two on the kitchen table, I have been working daily for four decades to make what I see in my brain come through my hand. If I made a mistake drawing or painting, or couldn't make a smooth gradation with wet paint...the work looked like crap. If I wanted a painted tree to feel like an impressionists painting or an airbrush look so perfect in gradation it looked like silk...it took years of "nerve training" and ass busting skill development with flesh and mind matter. Same to learn to draw a figure or understand how light theory works on things that you want to look real that come from your mind only. The only "data base" I had was in my own brain. People who could not master these skills...soon were out of a career..or never had one as artists. What is this important?

Well, I have noticed some interesting things out there happen as we now mix traditional, seasoned artists with fresh outta school, highly capable digital artists. I taught Entertainment Design for Illustration majors at Art Center College for eight years. These students are SERIOUS about their careers. There were many levels or margins of talent in my classes. What I see today is that digital art has GREATLY narrowed the margins of talent as perceived by society. I have first hand witnessed former students of mine who were at BEST marginal artists that I was seriously worried for career wise who I have talked to in recent times that generate MIND BLOWING digital art now...and fully admit they would flounder like an eel in the desert if asked to draw and paint or design in traditional mediums.

Over lunch recently, this person and two others showed me how they use the art of other traditional artists(scanning in parts of the art)to create a data bank of "brushes" and colors and sections of art with photos and computer generated perspective models to montage together skillfully and end up with a powerfully impressive image. I saw the one I mentioned that I had little respect for, skill wise create and painting that looked, even in style like a very famous Disney artist in the print. He had a "tool box" of things to imitate the brush strokes, the style, the colors....it blew my mind. He was able to create a piece that if asked to do traditionally, would be WAY out of his league in a lifetime of developing his hand and brain link traditionally. It's understandable why many artists resent this! Especially animators and illustrators who worked hard to posses raw, traditional skills from mind to medium. No different than if they were to create a program(maybe they have), that can allow anyone to write music to some acceptable degree with or without training. YES, the better talented or traditionally trained perhaps the better the song, but still, it would allow tons of good enough music to be created that one could saturate the music industry with, generated by a person who had put in VERY little "dues" into a career in music...nor could they sit and do a live performance on a piano. What if a computer could make anyone's voice sound like a singers...would we not eventually get insensitive to raw, rare talent?

What is my point? Well...the point is that we can argue that digital art IS a tool...or a crutch depending on the hands it is in. It can put a lot of people who spent decades the old fashion way to hone a skill out of a job..replaced by mediocre art technician just out of tech school. It can also be a truly FUN and incredible way for a traditional artist to expand into another medium! I am doing that too...not to replace any traditional skills for good...but just cus it's another variation.

The one tough thing about a digital image as a sell-able art product though, in my experience and seeing other artists I have shown work with is that there is no "original". I am not saying this is bad or good. However, I cannot tell you how many times I have tried to sell a collector of my art on a limited edition print that wants THE ORIGINAL! They will pay 15K for that!..but pass on $100.00 for a print. There are times I have sold originals that looked great in print, but had my cat's hair in the paint or a gnat embedded in the pigment from those painting outdoors moods I have had. Why would anyone want this?

Well, People explain that they want the "THING" I(or any artist)actually touched, leaned my wrist on, sneezed on or just absorbed the creative energy in the room. I relate to this I think. I savor Polaroid pictures of my relatives that have passed on even more than other photos. Why? Because that Polaroid paper was sitting in the camera and popped out IN THE MOMENT while they were in the room...and was "there" where that image was captured. Call me crazy...but I can feel the energy inside that little picture and that is special.

Anyway, there is my string of thought...thinking out loud, without judgment..just observations and pondered. I have some definite opinions about digital images, animation and such. Not all good, but many good things too. But in the end, there is no "perfection" like imperfection in my mind...human and all else of this world. Look at a tree or any thing that feels "alive". A computer will never be able to duplicate this...no matter what you tell me. There is a "life" and energy it cannot duplicate that some call a "soul". So digital does have it's place in our world I think..and a very respected and mesmerizing one...BUT..all in context!
Have a great week and summer all, THOR

[ This Message was edited by: THOR's 2011-07-11 19:23 ]


 
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little lost tiki
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Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 7582
From: Orange,CA-right near the Circle!
Posted: 2011-07-11 9:45 pm   Permalink

Great Observations Tom!

Quote:
People explain that they want the "THING" I(or any artist)actually touched, leaned my wrist on, sneezed on or just absorbed the creative energy in the room. I relate to this I think



the computer hasn't figured out a way to absorb and project that Mana yet
Once it does....I'm lookin for another hobby!


 
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MadDogMike
Grand Member (6 years)  

Joined: Mar 30, 2008
Posts: 7318
From: The Anvil of the Sun
Posted: 2011-07-11 10:17 pm   Permalink

Thor's mention of the airbrush reminded me that the discussion about digital art has taken some of the heat off the airbrush artist. For years the airbrush got a lot of the same criticism, that it wasn't a serious medium and was only suitable for t-shirts at carnivals. I bet the airbrush artists are happy to have the white-hot spotlight off them
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GROG
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 6882
From: Tujunga
Posted: 2011-07-12 03:21 am   Permalink

Yay! Now we're talking! Great observations by a number of artists and and art enthusiasts alike. GROG especially glad to hear from Tobor, Doug Horne, Thor Aloha Station, etc.on the subject since they do both handmade and digital art and combinations thereof.

GROG believe that In the end, digital art IS just another medium. You can play with clay, pastels, colored pencils, wood carving, stone carving, photography, oil paints, airbrush, enamels, collage, paper mache, airbrush, glass blowing, styrofoam, scrimshaw, watercolor, welding, digital, CNC machine, or maybe you want to wrap an island in fabric, etc. etc. etc., but in the end you have to find the medium that best helps you create the vision in your head. Every medium has properties and characteristics that make that medium unique unto itself. Wood carvings can crack, and rot, and fade in the sun, but that is the nature of that medium. Stone is hard, oil paintings are flat, films move, etc. Digital art may have a "coldness", but that's not necessarily bad, that's just a characteristic of that particular medium. As man has developed, technology and innovations have lead to new ways to create art faster and more efficient and the computer is leading the way into the future of creating art. It is a tool just like a pencil, a paintbrush, a chisel, etc. You still have to learn how to use it and practice on it until you can get it to do what you want it to do to create what you want to create. The artists eye is the final factor in deciding what the end product will look like.

But still, GROG can understand the desire to have the original piece straight from the artists' hand. The old way of animating, you had development artists and designers who developed the look of the film. Storyboard artists who plotted out the story and staging of the film. You had animators who did the rough animation, then you had clean-up artists who took the rough animation and put it on model, and gave it a single cleaned-up line, and then you had inkers and cel painters who put the animation onto cels which were then shot on film. All of the artists were extremely talented and had developed the necessary skills for their part of the animation process. So, when GROG buy animation art, GROG prefer to get the rough animation drawings, because the animators were the ones who initially breathed life into the drawings and made pencil lines on paper seem like living, solid, characters with emotions who inhabited a make believe world.


 
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little lost tiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 7582
From: Orange,CA-right near the Circle!
Posted: 2011-07-12 09:59 am   Permalink

Why you talking like Animation is Art,Ernie?

 
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GROG
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 6882
From: Tujunga
Posted: 2011-07-12 10:24 am   Permalink

Because animation is the ultimate art.

 
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Chuck Tatum is Tiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 1674
From: Southern Cailifornia
Posted: 2011-07-12 11:48 am   Permalink

Frankly, I would like to take all the money from "Christo's" projects
(Who is just an Interior decorator with to much money anyway, Just my opinion)
And redistribute it among the economically depressed Artist's (Grog I am looking at you)

Because I think Grog would be a little happier with a new "Fanny Pack" and his power still turned on.
I hope you don't wear the "Fanny Pack" to job interviews Grog, do you?




 
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Zeta
Grand Member (2 years)  

Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Posts: 2049
From: Atlantis/Basque Country/Spain/Mexico
Posted: 2011-07-12 12:54 pm   Permalink

They should invent digital paint.

or digital wood...



 
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Chuck Tatum is Tiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2011
Posts: 1674
From: Southern Cailifornia
Posted: 2011-07-12 1:29 pm   Permalink

Zeta,you do know you are on a computer right now, talking about all things "Digital"
and you are doing it digitally.


 
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Zeta
Grand Member (2 years)  

Joined: Feb 13, 2007
Posts: 2049
From: Atlantis/Basque Country/Spain/Mexico
Posted: 2011-07-12 2:07 pm   Permalink

Chuck Tantrum,
Read older post (page 2) on this thread,
where I say "Except internet for tiki central"




 
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