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The Tikipedia
bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11244
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2014-01-27 11:09 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-01-27 10:53, TikiTacky wrote:
Serious question: There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether something is "tiki" or not, yet tiki seems to be a generic term at this point for anything Polynesian themed. What is the distinction between saying something is tiki and saying it's Poly-Pop, aside from the fact that they may have used tiki imagery? It seems like splitting hairs, but maybe I'm missing something.




You are aiming to write the TIKIPEDIA, and you think it's splitting hairs to differentiate between Polynesian Pop and Pre-Tiki, and the Tiki period !? I thought the aim was to DEFINE Tiki style.

Well, you might as well ride the wave, make the site a party and cocktail site along with many of those documentaries. Fact is before the Book of Tiki came out, many of these places and things were called "Hawaiian" and "Polynesian" and "Tropical". And you know what? They still are - UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.

I know people don't like to think, differentiate, or get their bubbles burst. So just continue along the happy path of throwing it all together - it's just supposed to be fun, after all, right ?

Sorry, but I am really tired to explain it, can't somebody else do it, PLEASE !? I have done it way too many times, in fact I just did it in my two lasts posts above, if that does not do it, together with my chart, I dunno…



…the boulder just rolled down again.

[ This Message was edited by: bigbrotiki 2014-01-27 11:22 ]


 
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2014-01-27 11:16 am   Permalink

I happen to agree with Sven on all of this. If it is "tiki" and it is found in Hawaii, it was probably imported there from the mainland....

Hawaii has a lot of Polynesian artifacts....but they are more religious, and historical....too authentic to be "tiki" (tiki as a poly pop phenomena)

I am really into research about the northwestern Hawaiian islands...the OTHER Hawaii..

and to use Nihoa as an example...there were many stone idols found there...but it is not "tiki".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihoa

and from necker island:









The real Polynesia is very far removed from "Tiki" as can be. Tiki, as we know it, is almost a cartoon, Hollywood version of Polynesian culture.....now, that does not stop me from thinking the coco palms was one of the coolest hotels in Hawaii! (Maybe the Hanalei plantation was better) or even stopping me from loving Turtle Bay! Tiki is very narrowly defined by Sven in his book...too narrow for some people...but I totally buy into his explanation. I do think, however, the two sides can mix...my own band is living proof of that...we are both tiki and Hawaiian.....to cite one example....but I would say Martin Denny is more tiki then us!

[ This Message was edited by: lucas vigor 2014-01-27 11:21 ]


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AceExplorer
Grand Member (3 years)  

Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 999
From: Deep in the Jacksonville Florida jungle.
Posted: 2014-01-27 11:17 am   Permalink


What Sven seems to be saying is that in order for Tikipedia to become credible and to remain credible it must take those hard questions and must get the answers right.

Sorry for butting in. It is a daunting task to write such a body of knowledge in Tikipedia. We are fortunate to have Sven and others looking over all of our shoulders here on TC.


 
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11244
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2014-01-27 11:31 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-01-27 11:16, lucas vigor wrote:
I happen to agree with Sven on all of this. If it is "tiki" and it is found in Hawaii, it was probably imported there from the mainland....

Hawaii has a lot of Polynesian artifacts....but they are more religious, and historical....too authentic to be "tiki" (tiki as a poly pop phenomena)



Thanks Lucas, but Hawaii also had a thriving tourist souvenir culture, like Coco Joe's and Hip and other manufacturers who made cartoony Tikis. But tourist culture is not unique per se, many places made mementos from tropical paradise, like Cuba, Jamaica, you name it. But nowhere did a tropical pop culture thrive AWAY from the source as it did in American Tiki style.

There were Tikis carved in Hawaii for commercial places like hotels also. But the majority of them were closer to authentic reproductions, and did not get as creative as their mainland versions. Closeness to the source demanded more respect to the originals.

Oh, and about "narrowly defined" in my book : But what a horn of plenty, what a well of creativity was mid-century Tiki ! I am just fighting to protect the specialness of that, by making clear what it is and what it is not.

[ This Message was edited by: bigbrotiki 2014-01-27 11:35 ]


 
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TikiTacky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 1310
Posted: 2014-01-27 11:38 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-01-27 11:09, bigbrotiki wrote:
Quote:

On 2014-01-27 10:53, TikiTacky wrote:
Serious question: There seems to be a lot of debate as to whether something is "tiki" or not, yet tiki seems to be a generic term at this point for anything Polynesian themed. What is the distinction between saying something is tiki and saying it's Poly-Pop, aside from the fact that they may have used tiki imagery? It seems like splitting hairs, but maybe I'm missing something.




You are aiming to write the TIKIPEDIA, and you think it's splitting hairs to differentiate between Polynesian Pop and Pre-Tiki, and the Tiki period !? I thought the aim was to DEFINE Tiki style.

Well, you might as well ride the wave, make the site a party and cocktail site along with many of those documentaries. Fact is before the Book of Tiki came out, many of these places and things were called "Hawaiian" and "Polynesian" and "Tropical". And you know what? They still are - UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.

I know people don't like to think, differentiate, or get their bubbles burst. So just continue along the happy path of throwing it all together - it's just supposed to be fun, after all, right ?

Sorry, but I am really tired to explain it, can't somebody else do it, PLEASE !? I have done it way too many times, in fact I just did it in my two lasts posts above, if that does not do it, together with my chart, I dunno...



First of all, I never claimed to be an authority on this. I'm not "writing" the Tikipedia—I set it up and am running it along with Nomeus. We're encouraging people who are knowledgeable about various subjects to contribute. A wiki is by its very nature collaborative, and no single person is in charge (well, I suppose I could delete everyone's posts, but that's counterproductive).

The aim is to be a source for knowledge about everything that makes up what we call "tiki." That includes people, places, things, and concepts. And yes, there will be disagreement about some of the concepts. For an academic, you should know as well as anyone that disagreement is a core part of any academic field. Some things are clearly defined, some are still in discussion.

You complain that no one seems to "get" what tiki is. That is either because it isn't as easily defined as you claim, or you haven't been able to explain it well. I asked whether the only thing that defines tiki is the actual use of a tiki, and the answer seems to be yes ("UNLESS they employed the Tiki image in their architecture, design and graphics.") But what I'm not understanding is why that matters. If people had called it a coconut movement, would we be arguing about who first used coconuts? What about tapa cloth? Should they be called tapa bars? And you say the use of a tiki image defines what is tiki, but then note places that used the image that aren't tiki. Clearly you see a distinction that we don't, and obviously I'm struggling to understand what that is.

It seems to me you have defined very well when tikis started to be used as a visual element, but not why they were so important to the concept, other than being an easily identifiable Polynesian element? There are plenty of elements that make up a tiki bar. What if the bar was decked out in 50s diner theme with vinyl booths, checkered tiled floors, a jukebox, and a tiki. Is it a tiki bar? If a restaurant has palm trees, waterfalls, paintings of hula dancers, waitresses in grass skirts, but no tikis on display is it not a tiki bar?

I'm not trying to be difficult, Sven, but I'm trying to figure out what it is that makes the tiki so centrally important to the tiki concept that we can say Don the Beachcomber had every single element of "tiki style," including a tiki on display, but for some reason it's not tiki. Are you saying that we simply don't call it tiki because tikis weren't popular yet? It seems somewhat arbitrary.

Help me, and everyone else, understand. Clarity is needed, exasperation isn't. If I can get a clear understanding of this I'll be happy to put it on Tikipedia and let other people add to it, disagree with it, or whatever.

EDIT: Added emphasis so people understand how a wiki is supposed to work.
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[ This Message was edited by: TikiTacky 2014-01-27 11:50 ]


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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11244
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2014-01-27 11:55 am   Permalink

Let's see: All the elements of Polynesian pop were there BEFORE Tiki style. They were the stage that the Tiki appeared on. Without the Tiki they would have been BORING, because they had been going on for generations. In Tiki style, all those concepts were pushed to the peak. Tiki style is the culmination of Polynesian Pop. Mid-century modern, non-bamboo places that used Tikis are called Tiki Modern. If Don's used a Tiki, it was an EXCEPTION to its otherwise Beachcomber look. I never said the Kalua Room was not "Tiki" it was Tiki ahead of its time. IF IT SAYS TIKI ON IT, IT SHOULD HAVE TIKI IN IT!

 
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11244
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2014-01-27 12:03 pm   Permalink

Here's a prize-question: If the Thornton brothers were so inspired by Don The Beachcomber in Chicago that they hired away all its staff and used all its concepts to open their place, WHAT made the Mai Kai "Tiki" as opposed to Don The Beachcomber? Can be answered in one sentence.

 
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TikiTacky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 1310
Posted: 2014-01-27 12:06 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-01-27 11:55, bigbrotiki wrote:
Let's see: All the elements of Polynesian pop were there BEFORE Tiki style. They were the stage that the Tiki appeared on. Without the Tiki they would have been BORING, because they had been going on for generations. In Tiki style, all those concepts were pushed to the peak. Tiki style is the culmination of Polynesian Pop. Mid-century modern, non-bamboo places that used Tikis are called Tiki Modern. If Don's used a Tiki, it was an EXCEPTION to its otherwise Beachcomber look. I never said the Kalua Room was not "Tiki" it was Tiki ahead of its time. IF IT SAYS TIKI ON IT, IT SHOULD HAVE TIKI IN IT!


OK, I think I understand how you're defining it. But you still haven't made clear why the tiki itself was such important an element that it defined the Tiki Era? Couldn't it just as easily have been called the Bamboo Era? Am I understanding correctly that you are claiming that the sole addition of a tiki made poly-pop "unboring" and redefined an entire style?
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TikiTacky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 1310
Posted: 2014-01-27 12:08 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-01-27 12:03, bigbrotiki wrote:
Here's a prize-question: If the Thornton brothers were so inspired by Don The Beachcomber in Chicago that they hired away all its staff and used all its concepts to open their place, WHAT made the Mai Kai "Tiki" as opposed to Don The Beachcomber? Can be answered in one sentence.



If I'm understanding you correctly, the answer is "The incorporation of tikis as a design element." Am I getting it?
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2014-01-27 12:15 pm   Permalink

the way I see it, it is kind of like with the rockabilly scene....

if you are a male rockabilly performer, the pompadour and sideburns are a key part of it....you could be like me, fully able to play the slap bass in a rockabilly style...but without that one element of the rockabilly appearance....I could never be considered a rockabilly bassist!

for rockabilly, soon as you see a guy with a pompadour.....you think "rockabilly"

so with tiki, as soon as you see a tiki statue....you think "tiki". It's one of those key elements that defines something. A lot of lay people think "bamboo" is tiki, in an of itself....but bamboo can be used in Caribbean bar.....

Aloha shirts: Buffett wears them.....need I say more?



 
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TikiTacky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 1310
Posted: 2014-01-27 12:26 pm   Permalink

This is a very important discussion, and I agree that it needs to be clearly understood. I'm not trying to persuade or dissuade anyone of anything, I am asking questions solely to make sure I understand how concepts are being defined, so that I can then explain them well to others. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and input on this, especially Sven, who I know feels like he has explained it until he's blue in the face.
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JOHN-O
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 16, 2008
Posts: 2694
From: Dogtown, USA
Posted: 2014-01-27 12:57 pm   Permalink

I would encourage people to read this thread if they haven't yet. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and had to be locked, but I think there's a lot of thoughtful discussion contained in it...

http://www.tikiroom.com/tikicentral/bb/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

Also I hate to say this, but have any of you read the "Book of Tiki" or "Tiki Modern" ?? (Sorry, it doesn't seem that way). If not, that should be the first prerequisite before starting a Wiki page on Tiki.


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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11244
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2014-01-27 1:04 pm   Permalink

It seems you do not own any of my books You are making me work overtime here.

Tiki became not just a "design element" but a FIGUREHEAD, COMPANY LOGO, TRADEMARK:













By the late 50s/ early 60s it even popped up in Pre-Tiki concepts like "Beachcomber", "Trader" or "Bali Hai" which had not used it before:







 
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2014-01-27 1:09 pm   Permalink

My god! 15 pages on that thread...and we are no closer to an answer!

No matter what, let's not let the discussion dissuade tiki tacky and nomeus from doing this project! we need a tikipedia!

You ask 100 people on this forum, and you will get 100 different answers! better not ask me, because I still don't consider surf, low brow or rockabilly to be tiki....and all three are very much considered to be tiki by most here!

I doubt we will ever agree.....!!

Book of tiki is a good start, however...it was the first time I ever saw tiki codified.....


 
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TikiTacky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 23, 2010
Posts: 1310
Posted: 2014-01-27 1:13 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-01-27 12:57, JOHN-O wrote:
I would encourage people to read this thread if they haven't yet. Unfortunately it spiraled out of control and had to be locked, but I think there's a lot of thoughtful discussion contained in it...

http://www.tikiroom.com/tikicentral/bb/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1

Also I hate to say this, but have any of you read the "Book of Tiki" or "Tiki Modern" ?? (Sorry, it doesn't seem that way). If not, that should be the first prerequisite before starting a Wiki page on Tiki.



Thank you for linking to this! The thread is a perfect example of why something like the Tikipedia is needed. The information in that thread is very important, but spread over fifteen pages and ultimately became so unwieldy that it had to be locked. Do stilling it down to the key points and putting them in one spot will save myself and lots of other people (including poor Sven) a lot of heartache.
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