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Tiki Central Forums » » Tiki Drinks and Food » » Lemon Hart question
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Lemon Hart question
thePorpoise
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 23, 2011
Posts: 1259
From: Tampa Bay
Posted: 2014-07-22 7:18 pm   Permalink

well.... we're WAITING.... </judge smails voice>

 
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lunavideogames
Grand Member (3 years)  

Joined: May 09, 2012
Posts: 1225
From: San Diego
Posted: 2014-07-22 7:34 pm   Permalink

I don't really think it is a good sub, but it is a LOT cheaper so I hope we can make it work

 
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tabuzak
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 284
From: New York City
Posted: 2014-07-22 8:01 pm   Permalink

I am sorry to say that the last source for old label Lemon Hart in NYC that I know of, Union Square Wines, is out. I was in Astor Wines & Spirits tonight and they seem to have plenty of the later version on the shelf, for what that's worth.

You can read all you want to, but do the taste comparison yourself, if you can. Very sadly, I find the newer release dull compared to the old label. I think the Hamilton/Cate youtube video was honest. They admits there's a difference, whatever the rationalization. I bought a couple of bottles in support of the venture (of course! what a noble cause!) but I was really disappointed.

On the other hand, Ed Hamilton's new series of rums are over the top fantastic! Check out his Jamaican and St. Lucian pot stills and you could put your Lemon Hart blues away for awhile. These are serious pirate rums! Try a Mai Tai made with Hamilton Jamaican (only - no agricole needed)). Killin'!

-Jack



 
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jokeiii
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 18, 2010
Posts: 359
From: Miami
Posted: 2014-07-22 8:03 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-07-22 09:39, Swanky wrote:
Found LH151 in Chicago this weekend and brought back a couple of bottles. They had El Do 151, and as someone said, it is a clear rum probably similar to Wray and Nephew Overproof, only stronger. Not an option. I left 1 bottle of LH151 at the Liquor Warehouse on Wabash...



There were two. WERE.


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tabuzak
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 284
From: New York City
Posted: 2014-07-22 8:14 pm   Permalink

Maybe I posted this before? Maybe not here?

Try using a 1:1 mix of Goslings 151 and Plantation Old Dark (not my idea - they did this at PKNY) as a dark over-proof option.

It's not Lemon Hart 151. It's a great alternative with it's own character, that I came to crave.

Jack


 
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arriano
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 1303
From: Dog Patch - San Diego
Posted: 2014-07-23 09:22 am   Permalink

This might seem sacrilegious, but if you're making a 1934 Zombie, what if you switched the Puerto Rican Gold with Bacardi/Cruzan 151, and switched the Lemon Hart 151 for 80-proof El Dorado Demerara? Seems to me you would retain the Demerara flavor and the extra kick. Unfortunately, I have neither Bacardi 151 nor El Dorado currently to test this.

 
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djmont
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 374
From: Potomac Falls, VA
Posted: 2014-07-23 09:48 am   Permalink

If I weren't so lazy, I'd test some of these out.

I'm curious as to how much one would miss the LH151 in the '34 Zombie if a reasonable substitute was used.

I'm guessing it wouldn't matter too much.

After all, who the hell knows what LH tasted like 80 years ago. There's no reason to think it's all that close to today's version anyway.
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David J. Montgomery
Professor Cocktail

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Swanky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5065
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2014-07-23 09:59 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-07-23 09:48, djmont wrote:
If I weren't so lazy, I'd test some of these out.

I'm curious as to how much one would miss the LH151 in the '34 Zombie if a reasonable substitute was used.

I'm guessing it wouldn't matter too much.

After all, who the hell knows what LH tasted like 80 years ago. There's no reason to think it's all that close to today's version anyway.



A) I often make it with 80 proof instead of 151 and it works fine. Just less potent.
B) We may not know what it tasted like 60 years ago, but someone out there does, like Steven Remsburg, however, just as we do not actually know what #4 is, we do know that using cinnamon syrup gives you a good drink, we know that current LH151 also gives a really good drink.

Although we do not have Dagger Puncg Rum, we can use other rums and get at it. If LH151 today was nothing like it used to be, the drink today would not be very good either.
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djmont
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 374
From: Potomac Falls, VA
Posted: 2014-07-23 10:21 am   Permalink

I'm not suggesting that today's LH151 is nothing like what it was 80 years ago. I'm saying that it's inevitably going to be different. (Hell, some people think the current iteration is enough different from the last one that they don't like it.)

So it's not unreasonable by any means to substitute a similar rum when necessary -- and to do so with the knowledge that it's not going to change the drink THAT much.

In the end, as long as it tastes good...
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David J. Montgomery
Professor Cocktail

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AceExplorer
Grand Member (3 years)  

Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 999
From: Deep in the Jacksonville Florida jungle.
Posted: 2014-07-23 10:27 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-07-23 09:22, arriano wrote:
This might seem sacrilegious, but if you're making a 1934 Zombie, what if you switched the Puerto Rican Gold with Bacardi/Cruzan 151, and switched the Lemon Hart 151 for 80-proof El Dorado Demerara? Seems to me you would retain the Demerara flavor and the extra kick. Unfortunately, I have neither Bacardi 151 nor El Dorado currently to test this.



Arriano, I hesitate to use Bacardi 151 for anything because it has a sharper ("less good") flavor profile than other products. It does make for decent flaming garnishes, though!

Since Bacardi 151 is very low-end compared to Lemon Hart, there may be another way to introduce flavor and then kick up the alcohol content with a neutral spirit like Everclear. That's just speculation on my part, though, because the complex flavor profile of LH151 is very hard to substitute. As others pointed out here within the last couple of hours, though, substitutions sometimes don't alter a drink that much, and we may eventually come to settle on somewhat of an acceptable substitute. I think you're heading in the right direction with your thinking. I wish I had the time to explore all kinds of interesting options.

Blah. I need a drink!


 
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djmont
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 374
From: Potomac Falls, VA
Posted: 2014-07-23 10:44 am   Permalink

I don't have any Gosling's 151, so I'll have to wait on trying that one until I pick some up.

What sounds like another promising substitution?

1 oz. of Cruzan 151 and 1 1/2 oz. El Dorado 5? (for the gold Puerto Rico and Demerara)

Thoughts?
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David J. Montgomery
Professor Cocktail

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jokeiii
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 18, 2010
Posts: 359
From: Miami
Posted: 2014-07-23 11:51 am   Permalink

Quote:
On 2014-07-23 09:22, arriano wrote:
This might seem sacrilegious, but if you're making a 1934 Zombie, what if you switched the Puerto Rican Gold with Bacardi/Cruzan 151, and switched the Lemon Hart 151 for 80-proof El Dorado Demerara? Seems to me you would retain the Demerara flavor and the extra kick. Unfortunately, I have neither Bacardi 151 nor El Dorado currently to test this.



No less an authority than Jeff "Beachbum" Berry himself has suggested (to me, directly, as we were discussing this subject at The Hukilau) this very course of action, calling it "the switcheroo." The catch -- and there's always a catch -- is that it really only works in recipes which call for the same amount of a PR gold AND of LH151. The 1934 Zombie calls for 1˝oz of PR gold rum and 1oz of LH151, so in this case it won't work quite so well, as you'd have to do a bit more math (˝oz PR gold + 1oz Bacardí 151 + 1oz ED5/8/etc.) and the approximation will be less exact.

That said, the 1950 Zombie -- a better drink, IMO -- does call for 1oz each of PR gold and LH151, so you could comfortably do the switcheroo there.

You could buy a mini or two of the Bacardi 151 and the El Dorado (I've only seen ED12 in mini, though) to test it out.

Me, personally, don't find the Bacardí 151 to be any more or any less than a high-octane version of their gold rum, so I have no qualms slotting it in in recipes which feature PR gold. (Once I run out, I'll play with Cruzan 151, but this is not among those things keeping me awake at night.)

YMMV,

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Sunny&Rummy
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jun 13, 2013
Posts: 534
From: Melbourne, FL
Posted: 2014-07-23 11:57 am   Permalink

The Goslings 151 sub is going to give you more of the richness and depth of flavor that the Cruzan 151/ED 5 sub will not. What will get you into the ballpark along the same lines would be subbing with Cruzan 151/ED Dark. ED Dark is a very potent, burnt-acrid 80 proof product that you sometimes come across on store shelves. In increments of more that a half oz it overpowers most drinks, but just a bit of it in combo with Cruzan 151 should give a high octaine/high flavor substitute for LH151 that I think could work well.

 
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jokeiii
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 18, 2010
Posts: 359
From: Miami
Posted: 2014-07-23 12:40 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-07-23 11:57, Sunny&Rummy wrote:
The Goslings 151 sub is going to give you more of the richness and depth of flavor that the Cruzan 151/ED 5 sub will not. What will get you into the ballpark along the same lines would be subbing with Cruzan 151/ED Dark. ED Dark is a very potent, burnt-acrid 80 proof product that you sometimes come across on store shelves. In increments of more that a half oz it overpowers most drinks, but just a bit of it in combo with Cruzan 151 should give a high octaine/high flavor substitute for LH151 that I think could work well.



FWIW, Here in Miami, ABC carries ED Dark.
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djmont
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 374
From: Potomac Falls, VA
Posted: 2014-07-23 12:57 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2014-07-23 11:57, Sunny&Rummy wrote:
The Goslings 151 sub is going to give you more of the richness and depth of flavor that the Cruzan 151/ED 5 sub will not. What will get you into the ballpark along the same lines would be subbing with Cruzan 151/ED Dark. ED Dark is a very potent, burnt-acrid 80 proof product that you sometimes come across on store shelves. In increments of more that a half oz it overpowers most drinks, but just a bit of it in combo with Cruzan 151 should give a high octaine/high flavor substitute for LH151 that I think could work well.



Interesting suggestion. I've never tried the entry-level El Dorado, but this is a good excuse to pick some up.

I still have 4 or 5 bottles of LH151, but it never hurts to think ahead.


 
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