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Is it wrong to not want kids...? |
tikivixen
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 724
From: Vallejo CA
|  Posted: 2004-07-26 2:28 pm Permalink
I'd like to bring up a simple point. Pets such as cats and dogs and children differ simply in that pets--although they are not literally a part of you, created from your own flesh as your human children are--are capable of something most people of any age find difficult if not impossible...unconditional love.
And we all need that, hm?
Therefore, I feel that it's great to have both, for your child's sake and your own.
My testimonial: I remember all too well as a little kid when my dad was mad at me I'd go hug my kitty Jeremy and tell him my troubles. He'd always listen to me and lick my fact and purr and I would feel so much better. I know too that my dad got much the same kind of comfort from Jeremy when I was being a brat and saying lovely kid things like "I hate you, Daddy!"
Jeremy enriched both our lives.
For those who are not interested in having kids, animals provide particularly important companionship and love throughout life. For those with kids, the lessons animals can teach about unconditional love and trust are invaluable for both parents and kids. (And they teach responsibility too, I might add...if you can't even care for your cat, you'd better think twice about that baby!)
This leads me to another thought: dogs ARE more like kids than cats. They need more from you, and so, as posters above have observed, dogs manifest negative/abusive/neglectful parenting in their behavior just as kids do. Hence, seeing if you can make time for a dog in your life might be a good way of working up to a kid for those who have doubts about the subject. 
John, I don't think taking classes and educating yourself about childbirth and childrearing before you have kids is a bad idea! I don't know about requiring it legally, but I do think that since we as a society have seen such an erosion of the supportive family structure in recent generations, creating that kind of environment through other means is very positive indeed.
I've had several friends give birth for the first time in their thirties, and the worst thing for them was feeling so alone in it--hubby off at work, many friends childless, other friends who do have kids living far away, working themselves, whatever, no mom or aunts or sisters nearby to help and teach. Sheer loneliness a lot of the time (no matter how much you love your kids, they are not the greatest conversationalists for quite a few years!) until they learned to network with other moms in the same boat.
And, I might add, those friends of mine are all very glad they did so much research beforehand. I sure as heck will if my time ever comes.
One last thought: someone above said they'd never heard anyone with kids compare the loss of a pet to the loss of a child. That statement is meaningless to me. My friend Erica, for example, loves her animals and her child with equal intensity, but recognizes that they're just inherently different kinds of loves.
In other words, I wouldn't use the word "compare". The point is, love is love. There's no need to play "my love is better than your love." There are parents out there who hate their kids, and pet owners who would die for their animals. To each his own; but what I love equally to see is a good, responsible parent raising their child with love and attention and respect, and a good, responsible pet owner wholeheartedly returning the unconditional love and loyalty their critter gives them.
This is a fascinating and worthwhile thread. Thanks so much to everyone who's contributed.
Lisa aka tikivixen
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suzywong
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Feb 22, 2003
Posts: 161
From: New Orleans Upper 9th ward
| Posted: 2004-07-26 7:52 pm Permalink
Quote:
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On 2004-07-26 14:28, tikivixen wrote:
One last thought: someone above said they'd never heard anyone with kids compare the loss of a pet to the loss of a child. That statement is meaningless to me. My friend Erica, for example, loves her animals and her child with equal intensity, but recognizes that they're just inherently different kinds of loves.
In other words, I wouldn't use the word "compare". The point is, love is love. ..
Lisa aka tikivixen
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I think pets can be excellent, loyal, and loving companions, no doubt at all. My cats mean the world to me. I have spent over $5,000 on one cat alone with his health issues. BUT in no way compare to the love I have for my son.
I made that statement and I stand by it. As have a few others that posted.
I have yet to EVER hear ANYONE EVER say they felt worse when their dog died, than their child. This statement is always made by someone who hasn't had a child. You don't have a child, you wouldn't understand.
PS If someone here has children and sincerely would feel worse if their pet died than if their child died, please say so.
[ This Message was edited by: suzywong on 2004-07-26 19:54 ]
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thebaxdog
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jun 19, 2002
Posts: 775
From: Santa Ana, CA.
| Posted: 2004-07-26 11:11 pm Permalink
"PS If someone here has children and sincerely would feel worse if their pet died than if their child died, please say so."
And if you say it is the same, PLEASE write your address so I can send child services over right away, because you don't deserve the ultimate joy of having children!!
_________________
When this stops being fun
It's our fault
Have no brakes Cannot stop
Happydog (What can I do?)
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tikivixen
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 724
From: Vallejo CA
| Posted: 2004-08-09 12:56 pm Permalink
Gee whillikers. I see why some people never post here anymore.
heading for more kind and respectful grounds,
tikivixen
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Gigantalope
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Aug 01, 2004
Posts: 913
From: Shinola, California
| Posted: 2004-08-10 08:18 am Permalink
Hard topic to keep frendly about. Both sides have a rooting interest in the logic of thier own choices made or not made, to reinforce thier own descison. It's of couse a very personal choice, maybe best decided in an actual bar, rather than online.
Mrs Gigantalope and I have no offspring except a leghupming used hound and two cockatiels. from her perspective, she gets more ridicule than I do...on the other hand, this allows her to perform theater when she wishes.
I always sugest part time work as a substitute teacher...it will either test your metal for children, or be the most effective birth control ever.
good luck
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Chip and Andy
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jul 13, 2004
Posts: 2079
From: Corner table, Molokai Lounge, Mai-Kai.
| Posted: 2004-08-10 2:11 pm Permalink
Moderators can't moderate what I took out.
[ This Message was edited by: Chip and Andy 2009-02-23 10:20 ]
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BaronV
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 204
From: Moving again...
| Posted: 2004-08-10 3:25 pm Permalink
...and how would that have been different if you had a kid?
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Unga Bunga
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Jun 06, 2003
Posts: 5734
From: CaliTikifornia
| Posted: 2004-08-10 3:28 pm Permalink
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Geeky Tiki
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Oct 15, 2002
Posts: 533
From: Las vegas
| Posted: 2004-08-10 4:50 pm Permalink
This thread is starting to raise some intriguing questions:
I can relate to someone thinking he or she doesn't want to be a parent based on desire, experience, self-esteem, etc...
However, I don't fully get the "I would have less fun" part.
While I KNOW I wouldn't have had kids if they stayed a newborn for 30 years, getting through the first 1 1/2 years of pre-linguistic/not housebroken part is a short interval for all the fun that happens after.
As soon as they can walk and talk, kids are not balls and chains, at all. Seeing the Enchanted Tiki Room through their eyes is probably closer to what Disney had in mind than seeing it through my own rum addled eyes!
I apologize for my 'commercial' in favor of kids, it's really the "lack of fun" premise that caught my eye.
1) Does the "avoidance of non-fun" extend to childless peoples' other life decisions as well?
I'm all for fun, but if someone avoids a small period of hard work to advance in life because that period of time would be no fun, or is not willing to bypass some fun to save for a down payment on something, then I'd wonder what was up.
Is there a point where hedonism ceases to be a virtue and becomes a vice?
2) As a group, do the people who choose to avoid the "ball and chain" of parenting think that their time with their parents is a burden to their parents? Do they have a good time visiting with or travelling with their folks?
3) Does the notion of having kids seem like a permanent "no fun" zero sum outcome?
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The padlock GIF and the kids=no fun posts reminds me of a line from some show I saw once where an artist told his wife he wanted a divorce bacause she was holding him back.
She said, "Holding you back? I work so you can paint, I let you go out all night and sit at the coffee shop with your friends, I keep the house payment up, what on Earth am I holding you back from?"
The artist answered, "From sleeping with other women."
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So, anyway, I vote kids=more fun.
No offense meant to anyone, just looking at the two posts about fun or lack thereof.
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Tiki_Bong
Deleted
Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 0 | Posted: 2004-08-10 5:00 pm Permalink
I had a great first 31 years of my life without kids, I've had a fantastic 13 years since having kids.
I've been on both sides of the issue - I know what it's like to not have kids, I know what it's like to have kids.
Unless you can make that statement, you really cannot objectively say "I wouldn't want kids, because ... this or that".
If someone doesn't want children, that's perfectly fine. If they do, that's fine also.
It's just that you don't know until you do...
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"I'm ashamed to be here, but not too ashamed to leave..."
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SES
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: 992 | Posted: 2004-08-16 12:07 am Permalink
http://www.catster.com
http://www.dogster.com
http://www.newportbytes.com/bitchykitty.htm
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Exoticat
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Feb 08, 2003
Posts: 481
From: Hutikihi Island ~ near Seattle
| Posted: 2004-11-01 5:32 pm Permalink
Xena had the nerve to sit on the Book of Tiki, so I ran and got my camera. I remembered this old thread (and could actually locate it via a search). So here she is:
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cynfulcynner
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 1800
From: Ocean Beach, San Francisco
| Posted: 2004-11-01 5:46 pm Permalink
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TikiMaxton
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 556
From: Portland, OR
| Posted: 2004-11-04 11:00 am Permalink
Not enough people pass on the Tiki appreciation gene, I bet.
Great topic! I don't stop by "Beyond" to often, but maybe I should!
Quote:
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On 2004-07-16 08:07, Geeky Tiki wrote:
Hmmm, maybe the original Tiki period ended because so few Tiki fans reproduce!
It must have to skip generations, or something.
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I can tell you that, though Maggie and I choose not to have children (we think there are already too many people on this fragile little blue ball), our appreciation of tiki will continue through our nephews, in whom we have planted the seed of tiki. They love all things tiki and will carry on the legacy after we're gone!
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Monkeyman
Tiki Socialite
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2301
From: Vista, CA
| Posted: 2004-11-04 10:21 pm Permalink
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