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Tiki Central Forums Ľ Ľ Collecting Tiki Ľ Ľ TIKI GARDENS LP!!!
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TIKI GARDENS LP!!!
TikiHula
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 09, 2002
Posts: 711
From: SacTown
Posted: 2002-09-17 6:30 pm   Permalink

For the record, although I pointed out that what he was doing was illegal, I was not the person who blew the whistle on him.

I am pleased as punch though! ...although I'm sure he'll have no problem finding buyers for any amount of CD copies that he has made or wants to make...

At least Ebay is doing the right thing.
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Trader Woody
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 2301
From: Tiki Manor, Forest of Bowland,UK
Posted: 2002-09-18 01:48 am   Permalink

And it wasn't me either. Being a Brit, I play by the 'Queensbury rules'.

Trader Woody



 
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fatuhiva
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 634
From: Melbourne Beach, FL
Posted: 2002-09-18 05:21 am   Permalink

Ha! I'm glad ebay dumped the auction- the $160 I could take or leave, and now I at least know that this record is going to stay obscure, as it (apparent to me now) should be. After reading through these dumb posts, I realize, as the Archers of Loaf put so eloquently..
"The underground is overcrowded"

I was trying to think of a way to get out of distributing copies after I realized how silly this scene has gotten, what with people considering *tattling* on one another, etc.. which, by the way is what happened- somebody snitched- hmmmm I wonder who.. maybe the guy who flamed ME first, and then claimed I was coming at him for no reason (read the thread) - he did say he was considering it. Or perhaps it was The HallMonitor who keeps barking about copyrights (more below) -The funny thing is how on one hand you whine about legalities, and then on the other tell me I should be putting it on Kazaa- d u h.

Anyway- now none of you will hear this record, and I have to say, I'm not upset by it. As a matter of fact, I'm listening to it now, and its soothing sounds are ever the more sweet knowing they will never fall on the ears of the unworthy.

And to whomever keeps yapping about how it is illegal to make copies of this album- are you even reading the thread? You obviously don't know the first thing about Tiki Gardens. Let me educate you- the owners of have both passed on years ago, the property itself has been completely razed for years and ownership of the land has changed hands multiple times. This album will never be "re-issued", and is, at this point, in the public domain. Trader Frank just wanted people to remember Tiki Gardens- I tried to get this LP out there, and fill people's homes with the sound of the Trader's voice- and you poseurs get all out of wack about it. Lame, lame, lame- maybe this tiki thing has about run its course..


BTW- Isn't "Trader Vic.com" Cybersquatting? That's a corporate trademark. I'm telling!











[ This Message was edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-18 06:03 ]


 
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aquarj
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Posts: 1083
From: SF bay area, CA
Posted: 2002-09-18 2:17 pm   Permalink

Well, one thing in fatuhiva's defense is that he didn't necessarily set the price on the TG cds. As far as he knew when he listed it, there could've ended up being only 4 bidders with a cheap ending price. So he wasn't necessarily gonna get some massive profit - the numbers turned out to be pretty high without his control. You can't really call a seller greedy when they have a low starting price auction that ends up going through the roof.

But I agree that it seemed like a bait-and-switch to tell everyone about making digital copies of the LP so that interested people can hear it, and to then just put copies on ebay. He also posted later, seemingly to talk up the price. I think this was the beef that people had when they said "tiki spirit" and stuff like that - I think they were partially referring to the tiki spirit that seemed to even be in fatuhiva's original posts about this. Even fatuhiva's most recent neener-neener post ("I tried to get this LP out there and fill people's homes ...") still pretends to have some of the kind of "tiki spirit" that he ridiculed in the same thread. Personally I totally disagree with fatuhiva's claim that in the old days tiki collecting was all about dog-eat-dog price competition and privately hoarding things and not sharing. In fact, to me, this is the kind of price-guide-wielding, over-serious, pro collector talk that ruins EVERY kind of fun collecting genre.

I also agree that technically it's illegal, even though I don't think that was anyone's main beef. The law doesn't say that something automatically becomes public domain once it changes hands a certain number of times or once the original rights owner dies. And complaining about being finked on with ebay is like trying to argue out of a speeding ticket - it's kind of silly because the fact is that the rules were broken. It also doesn't mean that the underground is overcrowded or that tiki has run it's course or any of that sour grapes stuff.

It also sounds really silly to try to justify prices by any litany of expenses that supposedly went into the cds. How about I photograph a shag print and sell copies on ebay, and justify the price by saying it is offset by $150 for the original print, $200 for the frame, $350 for the digital camera, $1000 for the computer that I use to transfer the photo to a floppy, $17,000 for the car I use to drive to kinko's to print copies of the photo, and $2 for each photo print. That's all silly because I get to keep the original, the frame, the camera, the computer, and the car.

-Randy


 
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Double Crown
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 87
Posted: 2002-09-18 2:43 pm   Permalink

--I wasn't going to say any more about this issue, but I have to say that Randy's post sums up exactly why I was upset about this whole deal. He just said it better than me.

Sean

Quote:

On 2002-09-18 14:17, aquarj wrote:
Well, one thing in fatuhiva's defense is that he didn't necessarily set the price on the TG cds. As far as he knew when he listed it, there could've ended up being only 4 bidders with a cheap ending price. So he wasn't necessarily gonna get some massive profit - the numbers turned out to be pretty high without his control. You can't really call a seller greedy when they have a low starting price auction that ends up going through the roof.

But I agree that it seemed like a bait-and-switch to tell everyone about making digital copies of the LP so that interested people can hear it, and to then just put copies on ebay. He also posted later, seemingly to talk up the price. I think this was the beef that people had when they said "tiki spirit" and stuff like that - I think they were partially referring to the tiki spirit that seemed to even be in fatuhiva's original posts about this. Even fatuhiva's most recent neener-neener post ("I tried to get this LP out there and fill people's homes ...") still pretends to have some of the kind of "tiki spirit" that he ridiculed in the same thread. Personally I totally disagree with fatuhiva's claim that in the old days tiki collecting was all about dog-eat-dog price competition and privately hoarding things and not sharing. In fact, to me, this is the kind of price-guide-wielding, over-serious, pro collector talk that ruins EVERY kind of fun collecting genre.

I also agree that technically it's illegal, even though I don't think that was anyone's main beef. The law doesn't say that something automatically becomes public domain once it changes hands a certain number of times or once the original rights owner dies. And complaining about being finked on with ebay is like trying to argue out of a speeding ticket - it's kind of silly because the fact is that the rules were broken. It also doesn't mean that the underground is overcrowded or that tiki has run it's course or any of that sour grapes stuff.

It also sounds really silly to try to justify prices by any litany of expenses that supposedly went into the cds. How about I photograph a shag print and sell copies on ebay, and justify the price by saying it is offset by $150 for the original print, $200 for the frame, $350 for the digital camera, $1000 for the computer that I use to transfer the photo to a floppy, $17,000 for the car I use to drive to kinko's to print copies of the photo, and $2 for each photo print. That's all silly because I get to keep the original, the frame, the camera, the computer, and the car.

-Randy


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Double Crown Records
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fatuhiva
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 634
From: Melbourne Beach, FL
Posted: 2002-09-18 2:48 pm   Permalink

well, guys- I guess thats why you'll never hear it

That "tiki spirit" you were sensing in my posts must have been coming from the bong you guys were firing up while putting on the Buffet LP.. everybody on this board puts stuff up on Ebay, including myself. you're busting my nuts for doing the usual routine, simply because you're too cheap to bid on it- but thats the beauty of Ebay I suppose- those that want it enough get it. Those that wouldnt bother to pay $9.99 for my trouble aren't tiki enough to hear it in my opinion.

[ This Message was edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-18 14:52 ]


 
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Swanky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5061
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2002-09-18 3:18 pm   Permalink

<<It also sounds really silly to try to justify prices by any litany of expenses that supposedly went into the cds. How about I photograph a shag print and sell copies on ebay, and justify the price by saying it is offset by $150 for the original print, $200 for the frame, $350 for the digital camera, $1000 for the computer that I use to transfer the photo to a floppy, $17,000 for the car I use to drive to kinko's to print copies of the photo, and $2 for each photo print. That's all silly because I get to keep the original, the frame, the camera, the computer, and the car. >>

Yes, what you are saying sounds silly. But if it is, then there are lots of silly people out there who do silly things like charge money for making a poster of the Mona Lisa, sighting their silly costs for the equipment and rights to get a quality image, and the equipment to turn that into a quality poster and the cost of the paper and ink and the people who print the poster's time... That's a bunch of silly stuff. Publishers of all sorts are just silly.

The other option is for there to be one copy of the Mona Lisa and you must go where it is to see it.
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aquarj
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Posts: 1083
From: SF bay area, CA
Posted: 2002-09-18 5:14 pm   Permalink

Swanky, your example illustrates the point perfectly. Indeed, the actual printing cost is reasonable to account for, but it would be silly to cite the $$ value of the Mona Lisa as justification for the price of a print reproduction. Rougly speaking, the repro oughta cost the same as a repro of Dogs Playing Poker.

Of course when you bring up the business context, there's a much more complex depreciation equation based on volume, in which EVERY expense counts, including the absurd kinds of things I referred to like a car used for transportation. But each expense counts MUCH LESS per item, but that's probably way too off-topic for this forum anyway.

You're also right that many people do silly things all the time. Even people on this list, including me!

-Randy


 
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Dr. Bombay
Member

Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 2
Posted: 2002-09-18 7:08 pm   Permalink

sean i donít understand your concept of "copying it for free is okay, but selling it is not"

copying is copying. if youíve decided youíre going to break copyright laws, then what does it matter if you charge for it or not? or even if thereís no copyright, why does it matter if itís free or not? it seems like a arbitrary decision

perhaps one might sleep better at night knowing that they didnít profit off of a copy they gave to a friend, but the repercussions to the copyright holder are exactly the same whether you copied for free or charged money. in fact one could argue that giving them away for free devalues the original more than a charging for copies.

just a thought




 
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mig
Official Man-About-Town  

Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 323
From: Sunnycupertoga, CA
Posted: 2002-09-18 7:13 pm   Permalink

I've been reading this thread with interest... and though I had no intention of joining the fray, this brought back a most fond childhood memory that I must now share. So everybody, sing along to the tune of Eddie Murphy's "Ice Cream Man":

I've got my Tiki Gardens LP
I've got my Tiki Gardens
And you don't get none, and you don't get none
Cuz you are on the wellllfare
And your father is an al-co-holll-ic
You... can't...afffforrrrrd it!!!

Which reminds me: Eddie Murphy Delirious is long out of print. Somebody with a $1000 DVD burner should dig up a VHS copy and dutch auction some DVDs. I'd probably bite.

WANT A LISTEN? PSYCH!!!

mig.


-------------
Anyway- now none of you will hear this record, and I have to say, I'm not upset by it. As a matter of fact, I'm listening to it now, and its soothing sounds are ever the more sweet knowing they will never fall on the ears of the unworthy.
-------------


 
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bigbadtikidaddy
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 441
Posted: 2002-09-19 09:59 am   Permalink

I have to say, I've been leaning toward fatuhiva's side throughout most of this thread. Alot of people take this tiki crap too seriously.
I actually laughed my ass off when I read all that hippie stuff. I agree that "tiki spirit" is a newly coined phrase.
I've heard of "aloha spirit" & things "made with aloha", but tiki spirit? It sounds weird & newage-ish when people are talking about "tiki spirit" & the spirit of giving & sharing. I'm pretty sure there was never a "god of benevolent collectors"
I give stuff away all the time & always have. I also sell stuff all the time & usually find that when people know too much of your business: where you got it, how much, ect, the more they try to work you on the price & you end up being a dirty capitalist.

I think it was entirely fair to offer copies of the cd's for sale & the price wasnt astronomical, but people went & bitched about it.....ALOT. I would've been annoyed too.
I'm pretty sure there are more copies of that record to be found & not neccesarily on ebay. As if ebay is the only place to find anything? I guarantee more will turn up, there is always more shtuff out there, so no big whoop.


 
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fatuhiva
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 634
From: Melbourne Beach, FL
Posted: 2002-09-19 1:08 pm   Permalink

Hey somebody agrees with me!

Of course there are other copies of that record out there- ebay is definitely not the only place to find something- I just use it as a time:rarity reference since so many items pass through ebay in a given year.

I'm glad at least one guy found that hippie stuff funny! Thats why I was writing it anyway, I was laughing as I came up with it hahaha

Thank you for your support.

(whatever happened to that ad campaign?)

News Development: Regarding legalities of digitizing the LP- I just talked to the person who now owns the federal trademark to Tiki Gardens. He has "no problem whatsoever with it" in fact- he was bidder.








[ This Message was edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-09-19 13:14 ]


 
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Biotron2000
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 248
From: Bakersfield, California
Posted: 2002-09-19 1:47 pm   Permalink

Well, I offered before to just buy one. Interested now? I'll pay $20 (shipping included) for a copy of the CD if you're interested in selling one.
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KokomoTikiBar&Grill
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 20, 2002
Posts: 429
From: KOKOMO, MISSISSIPPI
Posted: 2002-09-19 3:54 pm   Permalink

Tiki Central Rules! I love you guys! I love everyone!

 
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Trader Woody
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 2301
From: Tiki Manor, Forest of Bowland,UK
Posted: 2002-09-20 01:54 am   Permalink

Quote:

I agree that "tiki spirit" is a newly coined phrase.
I've heard of "aloha spirit" & things "made with aloha", but tiki spirit?



Funnily enough 'Tiki Spirit' was a phrase coined by fatuhiva, the sensitive soul that he is. I mentioned the 'spirit of Tiki Central', which is really quite a different kettle of fish. Hope the wiser TC members can spot the difference!

Trader Woody


 
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