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Tiki Central Forums Collecting Tiki My Newest Ebay Item - Vintage Paul Marshall Mug Ad
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My Newest Ebay Item - Vintage Paul Marshall Mug Ad
tikifish
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 2720
From: Toronto,Canada
Posted: 2002-09-16 08:03 am   Permalink

Just to clarify, Chris, I spent entirely more than 15 minutes on making this. OK, first I bought a stack of about 30 vintage mags for 10 or 15 bucks, went through every page, found the ad. Then, cut it out and pondered what to do with it for about 6 months. Then, I found a some tall glass frames that fit the dimensions of the ad. Carried them home on my bicycle dangling from the handlebars. Not easy, nor reccommended.

Of course, photocopying the ads on white paper would look like crap, so I went to the art supply store to look for brown paper in an 11 x 17 size. Didn't find the precise shade I liked, so I got some brown craft paper in a roll and cut it down to size precisely so it could fit in the photocopier. I went for the colour photocopier, not the black and white, so the ink would be better quality. Then, I couldn't figure out the border, so after trying various handcrafted papers I finally settled on the burlap (which I got from a friend who wanted to wrap her rose bushes), which is a bitch to cut, as it wiggles as you go. Finally got that cut, glued it to the brown paper, and clipped it into it's glass frame.

I figure it was a few hours work. I'm sorry you don't think it looks like it.

Everyone simmer down now!!!! I just asked a simple question.




 
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Tiki Chris
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 1543
From: London
Posted: 2002-09-16 09:32 am   Permalink

speaking of dangling handlebars...

sounds like you put a lot of time into the project, becoming quite attached to the end result - probably not as much as this guy though:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=958735176&rd=1

[ This Message was edited by: Tiki Chris on 2002-09-16 09:35 ]


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HETO-TIKI
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Aug 09, 2002
Posts: 49
From: Central Florida
Posted: 2002-09-16 09:34 am   Permalink

Since TheMuggler chose to quote me, I feel like I need to clarify the point I was trying to make, Either you just didn't get my point or maybe I didn't say it clear enough. I wasn't saying Tikifish's piece was anything like coping a Shag (of course that has nothing to do with anything as far as her auction). And I was in no way supporting being mean and nasty to people either. I was simply saying that discussions have got nasty before and it seemed a lot worse to me to be talking bad about someone who can't even respond because they are not on Tiki Central and have no idea the trash was being said. Some of the things being said about the Shag rip-off artist was just hateful. That was just a discussion that also stuck out in my mind and I personally thought was totally evil. I think that was Mad-Tiki's point ???Who knows ??? Whether it was an excuse or not, isn't my problem. I don't like bashing anyone that is out there trying to make a living, especially an artist !! So in short Being nasty to anyone whether a Tiki central person or not is uncool, But everyone does have their opinion whether it is a popular one or not! In short it would be wonderful if everyone could express themselves a lot nicer and not go off on people, but after reading many post on this site I don't think that will ever be the case. There are just some really passionate people on here that have very very strong opinions and may not eloquently express them.
So no hating from me. Live, Love, and Laugh, and get over the rest !!


 
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HETO-TIKI
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Aug 09, 2002
Posts: 49
From: Central Florida
Posted: 2002-09-16 09:37 am   Permalink

And Tikifish, that was just my opinion about the framing and color shades, maybe I have paticular taste ? LOL.
Hope it was alittle helpful though !


 
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Tiki Chris
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 1543
From: London
Posted: 2002-09-16 10:51 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2002-09-16 08:03, tikifish wrote:

I figure it was a few hours work. I'm sorry you don't think it looks like it.




As I said, "I don't know how much you paid for the original ad or what you had to go through to possess it..." I was simply refering to the time spent (after all the pieces were in one place) assembling the item.

Of course, it was a bit rash of me to post just how long I thought you might have spent on the piece. I apologize. I never realized that burlap would be so difficult to cut, that you would buy a stack of about 30 vintage mags for 10 or 15 bucks & go through every page, that you would transport glass dangling from your bike's handlebars, or that you would take 6 months pondering what to do.

I guess I should have considered the cost of the clip frame too.

I still think that $14.95 is too much for the item (kudos if you sell it though!), & that you'd yield a higher return if you sold a few of the same items for less money.

I also think that the title of this topic:

"My Newest Ebay Item - Vintage Paul Marshall Mug Ad"

is rather misleading.

But, I do appreciate your artistry & look forward to any upcoming works you may wish to share w/ us!

Tiki Chris


 
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Tiki_Bong
Deleted

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 0
Posted: 2002-09-16 11:28 am   Permalink

Hey! We all have good and bad days, and our feelings/emotions will spill over into everything we do or say on our good or bad day (I feel a rap song comin'on!). I know this has happened to me on some of my posts (I know it happens to Baxdog!).

So what is the Bongo getting at you say?

This - we are to some degree a collection of varied individuals. Sort of like a family - and we all know you can't pick your relatives and there are a few that annoy you (like Uncle Rob at Christmas dinner - drinks way too much you know).

I think we just have to deal with the varied personalities as long as no one gets really mean. MaDTiKi came off a little heavy but maybe he had a bad day. Maybe he'll have a good day later and have a change of heart.

As you can see Bong is having a good day. Maybe I'll have a bad day tomorrow and be a real A$$h*le. Oh well.
_________________
"I'm ashamed to be here, but not too ashamed to leave..."


    
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aquarj
Grand Member (8 years)  

Joined: Apr 02, 2002
Posts: 1057
From: SF bay area, CA
Posted: 2002-09-16 1:09 pm   Permalink

My newest ebay item is a dirty plain white t-shirt I use for work and playing basketball. Many hours of toil have gone into making it as smelly and brown as it is, so the bidding starts at $30. Anyone interested?

Just kidding of course, and I'm definitely not equating any Tikifish item with a dirty rag. The point is that the hours of effort are almost totally irrelevant to value, at least to me anyway. A 15 minute Mark Ryden sketch could and maybe should be worth a lot, while a 15 hour masterpiece from me is probably still worthless. Even a dirty rag is probably worth a lot if it came from Elvis' sweaty back. Didn't Johnny Depp's cigarette butt go for $150 on ebay? Value is totally subjective.

And if someone has the opinion that some item on ebay is worthless, or a badly-executed ripoff, or even that the seller has zero talent, that doesn't mean it's hateful to say so. There are plenty of "artists" whose work I can't stand, but that doesn't mean it's only fair for me to say so if they're around to defend themselves. Why should they care what I think anyway? Of course, sometimes it *is* most courteous to follow Thumper's rule - if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

-Randy


 
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midnite
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 1230
From: 37? 47' N, 122? 26' W
Posted: 2002-09-16 1:24 pm   Permalink

Quote:

Of course, sometimes it *is* most courteous to follow Thumper's rule - if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
-Randy



.
midnite


 
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hanford_lemoore
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 23, 2002
Posts: 1869
From: Tiki Central
Posted: 2002-09-16 1:33 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2002-09-16 07:54, TheMuggler wrote:
The other people painted copies of Shag paintings and put them up for sale. Those other "artists" were copying not just style, but content, composition, and in some cases even colors (albeit rather ineptly). There IS a difference.



Mike, I'm not understanding this... Photocopying a Shag print and framing it is okay, but painting a new painting "in the style of" Shag is not? I'm not quite sure what you're saying.....

The Shag-alikes I've seen have been very similar in composition but there were new elements in them.

Just curious,

~Hanford


 
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tikifish
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 2720
From: Toronto,Canada
Posted: 2002-09-16 2:27 pm   Permalink

Just because you sew the fake Chanel logo in a different place, doesn't mean it isn't still a fake Chanel purse! haha!

This topic grows tiresome. Now we dance.


 
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SullTiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 228
Posted: 2002-09-16 2:31 pm   Permalink

I'm not interested in buying the whole thing framed. But if you were to put up just a high quality copy of the ad, Im sure Id place a bid on it.

 
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MaD-TiKi
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Aug 31, 2002
Posts: 50
From: TiKi HeLL
Posted: 2002-09-16 8:56 pm   Permalink

_________________

No more TIKI 4 U!!!!



[ This Message was edited by: mad-tiki on 2002-09-17 04:38 ]


 
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bigbadtikidaddy
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 441
Posted: 2002-09-16 10:53 pm   Permalink

Mad-Tiki-
let me see....I think I get what you're saying:
you're mental AND you dont know when to quit?

Since you took it so personally, and it just made you so "sick" that the artist wasnt there to defend themselves, maybe you should have posted your thoughts THEN, in the appropriate thread at the appropriate time. Why the hell are you going off NOW?
Whats the deal? Are your suppositories time released?
You seem satisfied that you put everyone in their place. .......at least thats what I think you're trying to say. You dont spell very well, so I could be wrong.

A couple of points you overlooked:

1) we dont know whoever did those paintings so nobody was being directly insulted.

2) we DO know TikiFish and you directly attacked her & sounded like a 6 year old doing it.

Rest easier folks, we have a new champion: mad-tiki,defender of those that cant defend "themselfs".

Seriously, you really need to lay off the comic books.

[ This Message was edited by: bigbadtikidaddy on 2002-09-16 23:01 ]


 
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TheMuggler
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 289
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posted: 2002-09-16 11:13 pm   Permalink

[quote]
On 2002-09-16 13:33, hanford_lemoore wrote:
Quote:

Mike, I'm not understanding this... Photocopying a Shag print and framing it is okay, but painting a new painting "in the style of" Shag is not? I'm not quite sure what you're saying.....



I'm saying that framing an object and selling it is different than copying (stealing) another artist's work and selling it as on original piece

If that's not true, then we better notify the FBI about all the frame shops that exist in this country!

And I never said photocopying a "Shag print" is okay. Tiki fish photocopied a vintage ad from a magazine -- hardly a work of art. Link from Frame Fetish frames Shag prints and sells them on eBay all the time, and I would never call him a rip-off artist.

Quote:

The Shag-alikes I've seen have been very similar in composition but there were new elements in them.



My first attempt at putting images in a post - forgive me if it looks like heck!

I'm going to try to respond to all the various issues in this argument, but I believe the photos will make the strongest case. I am also going to go beyond the scope of Hanford's quote above and responds to things others have written in other related threads.

First of all, yes, artists do copy each others work when they are learning. It is an accepted way of teaching yourself technique.

Second, yes, artists are influenced by the things around them, whether they be other artists, media, the market, whatever. All of it ends up in their art in some way (usually).

To me, the problem is when an artists tries to sell that copy. You want to copy Shag's work to learn his technique, great! Have at it. You want to hang that painting up, wonderful. Give it away as a gift, no problem. But if you just want to paint that image to sell on eBay because Shag is "hot" right now, well, that ain't art. There is nothing original about it. No statement is being made by the artist, nothing. It is simply profiteering.

If you want to defend profiteering, fine, but we should at least make the distinction between what an artist is and what a business-minded individual with a (questionable) ability to paint other people's images and ideas is.

It is easy to see how the artists on this list who work in an original style and make original art can get upset by this -- it demeans the work they do to see someone with less talent steal things and make money off it. And please don't say "well, you can go copy Shag and sell it too" because that is not a valid response

Now for the visual aids:

Here is a Shag sticker:


And here is a recent work of "art" that sold on eBay:


Sure, the "artist" painted a blue background, changed a few colors, but is anyone going to make a case that this is not blatant theft?

Here is an original Shag titled "Three Musicians"


And here is another recent work of "art," this one done "in his style."


This "artist's" big change was to reverse the image and add tiki torches up top. Of course, there is always the possibility that the "artist" was using an overhead projector would explain the reversed image, but I'll assume it was an intentional change.

I've seen other "Shag inspired" works that do make changes, but they are still rip-offs, because they steal not just the style, colors and compositions, but they steal the content as well. These rip-off artists are painting tikis and mod ghosts and cats and cool ladies, in modern settings just like Shag.

If one of these "artists" did something even slightly different, I would be on their side, but they do not. Why not paint "American Gothic" in the style of Shag? Or paint a Shag-style Marylin Monroe ala Andy Warhol? Or take 3 musicians and paint it in the style of Picasso's blue period?

The reason they don't is simple.

1 - they are not artists
2 - they are out to make a buck and the more they move away from Shag copies and into something more original but truly Shag inspired, the less money their "art" will get on eBay.

Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with making a buck. Hell, I really don't care if people want to copy Shag paintings and sell 'em on eBay -- if they can sleep at night doing that, then great -- it's their Karma they have to live with.

But please, please, please do not ask me to respect their "art." or even consider what they are doing art.

Shag came to his style organically, as an illustrator. It is totally influenced by the works of others and he has even taken things from other artists. I give you all of that. BUT, you cannot deny that in his art, Shag has created HIS OWN world, with HIS OWN iconography, even if it is a pastiche of what has come before. If it were not his own, we would never use the term "Shag-inspired" nor would it ever be referred to as "Shag-style."

I saw the examples of Shag's borrowing from other sources that were posted in the "Gallery of Shame" thread, and they are different than the eBay rip-off artists. Re: the Haunted Mansion image, Shag has taken a very popular Disney image, and turned the ghosts into hipsters. Is it a deep statement? No. But it definitely says something the original does not -- Shag has made an original statement with his own piece, separate from the Disney image. The eBay artists are doing no such thing. If they were, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

-Mike

P.S. I enjoy healthy discussions like this, so I apologize if you think it's a dead topic and should be left alone.
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TheMuggler
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 289
From: Brooklyn, NY
Posted: 2002-09-16 11:19 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2002-09-16 20:56, MaD-TiKi wrote:

Anyway, you have made no efford to even try and understand what I have been saying. Yes I did say it loud, but very clear. At least I thought I did, you still need work. Enough of you.



Dear Mad-Tiki,

It's time you just came clean and outed yourself as the mysterious "Shag rip-off eBay Artist."

Please, step forward and claim the glory, adulation, and big $$$ that is rightfully yours!



-Mike
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