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Tiki Central Forums Beyond Tiki Elton gives it to Madonna.
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Elton gives it to Madonna.
donhonyc
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Posts: 1173
From: The Quiet EAST Village
Posted: 2004-10-04 4:08 pm   Permalink

Finally one of Madonna's fellow pop-stars calls her out for the sub-mental phoney that she is. I f'ing love it! Not like I'm a big Elton fan but...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/04/people.elton.reut/index.html

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cynfulcynner
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 1800
From: Ocean Beach, San Francisco
Posted: 2004-10-04 4:32 pm   Permalink


It's about time!

I want to hear Britney sing without the aid of Pro Tools.


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tiki mick
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 398
From: Socal
Posted: 2004-10-04 5:36 pm   Permalink

I would love to hear no doubt, blink 182, new found glory, or pretty much most of todays artists try to play without protools!

Woud not happen!!

For those of you that don't know what Protools is:

Protools is a music production program that fixes many mistakes amatuer musicians make...if the singer is off key, it can fix it...when you hear Brittany Spears doing flawless harmony, it is because Protools can make harmony parts for you..if you wonder how an amateur band like Blink 182 can sound so tight and polished..protools!! If the drummer, for example, is playing to slow, or with inconsistant timing or even inconsistent dynamics, protools can fix it and make them sound like Niel peart!

Protools can make anyone sound like a star!

So when you hear that J-lo is making a new album, or maybe even Paris Hilton, it is protools that makes it happen for them!

Nice, huh?


 
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donhonyc
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Posts: 1173
From: The Quiet EAST Village
Posted: 2004-10-04 8:57 pm   Permalink

Oh god! That's all we need, a friggin' Paris Hilton record. Don't young Americans look dumb enough already?

 
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tikibars
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 11, 2002
Posts: 2024
From: Aku Hall, Chicago
Posted: 2004-10-04 9:54 pm   Permalink

Here's a clarification...

All ProTools is, is a digital recording system. At it's most basic functional level, it is no different than recording to tape. It captures sound to a hard disk, the same way old tape machines captured music to magnetic tape.

I hate to break it to ya', but 99% of all pro recording studios track to ProTools (or competing systems) these days. Only specialty boutique studios still use analog magnetic tape.

Now, there are Plug-Ins for ProTools that you can buy to enhance it's functionality.

Plug Ins are little extra programs that you buy to enhance the main program. Your Web Browser may use Plug Ins for tthings like watching Real-format movies, or Flash animation, and programs like Photoshop use Plug Ins for various visual effects.

Some of the Plug Ins for Pro Tools can do things like pitch correction, and you can adjust the timing of things - within reason - even wtihout Plug Ins. But make no mistake: the system isn't magic. There has to be something substantial there for the engineer to work with. No system is omnipotent. There has to be something useable in the performance to begin with, or you're out of luck.

And, get this: talented engineers and producers have been using machines to 'fix' flawed performances, add harmonies, adjust timing mistakes, correct pitch, and otherwise 'sweeten' recordings since the 1930s. It is just easier now!

How much adjustment of the performances occurs after-the-fact is up to the producer (not the band, not the engineer), and it has ALWAYS been that way.

Slick and overproduced pop records are tweaked to heck, and more natural sounding records are tweaked to a lesser degree... but it has been this way since day one, no matter what format the music has been recorded on. Don't blame the recording medium(i.e. ProTools), blame the tastes of the kids who buy these records and want them to sound this way!


 
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Atomicchick
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 08, 2003
Posts: 579
From: Southern California
Posted: 2004-10-05 12:29 am   Permalink

Wow, now I can finally become the pop sensation I have always dreamed of!!!

 
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Stratiki
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Feb 12, 2004
Posts: 31
From: Hamilton, Canada!
Posted: 2004-10-05 03:34 am   Permalink

Nice concise explanation of Pro Tools Tikibars. And you are right, the kids do want it to sound just like the cd live, and thats what they get most of the time. It's rare anymore to find a performer that isn't tracked live. Add all the dancing that Brittney, Janet, etc. do and there is little choice. an out of breath Pop Icon isn't very supportive of the expensive PR image the kids bought. What is bothersome, of course, is the unrealistic expectations of the public that everyone sound flawless live. Not my band that's for sure, no room for passionate over the top and unique performances if that was the case. We use Cubase to record, same thing. My old 2 inch MCI is in a happier place now!

 
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BaronV
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Oct 10, 2003
Posts: 204
From: Moving again...
Posted: 2004-10-05 05:14 am   Permalink

Some people don't like paying to watch someone stand on stage and perform - i remember dragging some friends to see the Verve and all they did was complain that the band never moved (and the lack of U2 size video screens).

Went to see James Brown and they were bothered that the old guy was breathing so hard.

i did pay to see Kraftwerk on their last tour - four guys standing on stage with their laptops. Sad thing is, i'd have probably paid the same amount to see the 4 Kraftwerk robots perform too.

[i like Sonic Foundry's Acid and Propellerhead's Reason (alongside their ReBirth)]


 
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tikibars
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 11, 2002
Posts: 2024
From: Aku Hall, Chicago
Posted: 2004-10-05 11:32 am   Permalink

I saw Krafterwrk in '97 or '98 and the Robots got the more applause than the humans did!


I remember a point during the 1970s when ELO got in trouble for playing along to tapes.

Even though I was like 10 at the time, I remember thinking: What do people expect? Their records have an orchestra, a chior, 5 layers of guitars, and backwards instrument effects. OF COURSE they'd need backing tapes to do that live!

...I guess this sort of insight is why I ended up a recording engineer for my living!



But, I think there is a fine line to be drawn.


In 1984-1986 I saw Depeche Mode a few times, and of course a lot of that music was coming off of tapes too. No drummer on stage. Drum machines on the records. But drums were heard at the show. Where are the drums coming from? Tapes! (drum machines of that era were often too unstable for live use, so they were probably taped).

Was ELOs behavior justified?

I think so.

Was Depeche Mode's?

I think so.

But a friend of mine who toured with Britney tells me that her entire show is 100% pre-recorded, except for her speaking between the songs.

Sorry, even if I liked her music, I'd feel ripped off.

Her justification (and this goes for most of her ilk) is that their show is a complete entertainment package - the dancing, the costmes, the lights, the stage, the video, the pyrotechnics, etc. Doing the music live with all of this going on is unfeasible.

Broadway shows use pre-recorded music sometimes (some shows do use live music, some don't), and no one complains: the audience goes to see a complete entertainment package, and making the music happen live is cost prohibitive and technically too difficult with all of the other stuff going on.

Now, I can see this point, but still, if I am paying for a show that bills itself as a music concert, not as a play or something, I want the music to be as live as possible.

There are times when justifiable use of backing tapes is OK (as in above ELO and DM examples), but these pop acts that tae their entire show? Well, all I can say is that I am glad I don't likeheir music anyway, and amtherefore not tempted to waste my money so show up and listen to a CD.

PS- clarification for non-tech types: ProTools is a studio tool, not a live tool... usually.

_________________
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My new book is "Destination: Cocktails": www.destinationcocktails.com.
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MachTiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 1363
From: San Diego, CA
Posted: 2004-10-05 11:54 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2004-10-04 17:36, tiki mick wrote:
I would love to hear no doubt, blink 182, new found glory, or pretty much most of todays artists try to play without protools!


Do you think that ProTools could fix the phoney British accent that Blink 182 has? I mean common... They're from f#cking Poway.

P.S. I mean no disrespect to Poway, CA - Just to Blink 182.


 
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freddiefreelance
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Feb 15, 2003
Posts: 2990
From: San Diego, Ca.
Posted: 2004-10-05 12:55 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2004-10-04 17:36, tiki mick wrote:
<snip>..if you wonder how an amateur band like Blink 182 can sound so tight and polished..protools!! If the drummer, for example, is playing to slow, or with inconsistant timing or even inconsistent dynamics, protools can fix it and make them sound like Niel peart!
<snip>


Let me say one thing in defense of these (former) Powegians, they're pro's not amateurs. They may be sloppy, but they're professionally sloppy! (you can say anything you like about the drummer, he's from Riverside)
_________________
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MachTiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Feb 16, 2004
Posts: 1363
From: San Diego, CA
Posted: 2004-10-05 1:03 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2004-10-05 12:55, freddiefreelance wrote:
...you can say anything you like about the drummer, he's from Riverside



Classic Freddie.

Also, I would like to point out to everyone that our friend Freddie wrote that WITHOUT an English accent.
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tiki mick
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 398
From: Socal
Posted: 2004-10-05 1:04 pm   Permalink

I guess what I am trying to say is based on my own experience...

I have been in many, many rock bands..some good, some bad..

All of them had the same problem. We would go to a studio, record our demo, and as I listen to the demos now..I realize how totally amateur the recording quality was..and most of the bands I was in had very good guitarists, great drummers, etc...

So when a band comes in nowadays, like Blink 182 or greenday, and I know for a fact I have played with much better musicians then those tards..yet, they sound so polished and perfect..the guitars consistant and perfect, the drums sound like a drum machine...

Don't try to tell me that applications like protools don't totally save the asses of amatuer sounding musicians, 'cause I know better!

You can replace the entire drum part with Wav files, so that where the snare drum was, there now is a perfect sounding electronic hyper-snare sample hitting in the exact same place...like using triggers...it's cheating!!

I understand most recording have been "processed" to some extent..the use of compressors and other things have been around for years..I realize that!

That's because you want the recording to be as hi-fi as possible.....

Green day, blink 182 and other bands are simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH to not use protools, ok!

And by the way, I have used protools for a while now, and think it is a great system..but guess what? I have been playing bass for 28 years now....and I don't think people like Mike Dirnt or Mark Hoppus can hold a candle to me!!!

I can't believe any of you people actually like these "bands" like greenday and Blink 182..they are so NOT TIKI!!!


 
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Feelin' Zombified
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 1329
From: The Exotic Shores of Lake St. Clair
Posted: 2004-10-05 1:26 pm   Permalink

Quote:

Protools can make anyone sound like a star!





Hmmm...

Well, I'm an early adopter, and back in the early to mid 90's when I was rebuilding my studio, I bought Pro Tools (version 2, for those that may care) And it's just like any other recording medium:

Shit in, Shit out.

There is no glorious fix-it-all button. There is no "Hit-o-meter" knob that you can boost. The only real advantages are it's desktop size and the fact that you don't have to resort to razorblades for editing. Just about all of its "tricks" are old studio functions that used to require lots of gizmos, and any big-budget pop star is going to record in a top $$$ studio that most likely STILL uses the "old" stuff.

That said, I'd put $10 on The Material Girl to kick Eltons weasel ass any day.

-Z
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Thank God The Tiki Bar Is Open
Thank God The Tiki Torch Still Shines...


 
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Johnny Dollar
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Oct 01, 2003
Posts: 2953
From: Baltimore, Maryland, PNG
Posted: 2004-10-05 1:33 pm   Permalink

"when divas attack..."

 
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