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Music swap at Hukilau
tikibars
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 11, 2002
Posts: 2024
From: Aku Hall, Chicago
Posted: 2005-09-13 11:34 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2005-09-13 09:36, Swanky wrote:
That argument falls completely flat on it's face with one simple fact: Used record and CD sales. Loss of sound quality: Zero. Revenue to the original artist and record industry: zero.
On the copying point, there is a lot of precident for allowing copying. Radio stations broadcast and copy music all the time. It's a fair use clause. There would be plenty of room to put this sort of sampler trading under the same "benefit equals loss" paradigm. Certianly in terms of out of print material, there is no loss at all. Zero revenue is being generated in any form of music sale, so no argument can be made of loss of revenue.
There are issues in all this, but not for us swapping music at Hukilau. My opinion is that the industry is just being a big bully rather than try to adapt their business model to changes in technology and society. Billy Mure was selling burned copies of his records last year, how does that fit in? All this is for big business and other people to worry about. Remeber kids, the RIAA only sues people who share a lot of music online, not those that download a lot of music online.



The post made by me on this thread prior to this one was for educational purposes only, and as I mentioned a the beginning of the post, it was not intended to detract from (or really have anything further to do with, except in the most abstract sense) people swapping music at Hukilau.

I didn't think I'd need to respond at length again on the admittedly not-very-Tiki subject. But Tim, as much as I like and respect you, I have to say that all of your various points above are completely misguided.

Let me address them one by one.

Used CD/LP sales. Artists and labels HATE this practice, but there is nothing they can do about it. The important point is that the music is not being copied or mechanically or digitally reproduced. If you buy a CD and then sell it to someone else, it is your property and you have the right to sell it off as used goods. It is true that the artists and labels make no money off of the sale, and in the 1980s there was a big push to get used record stores closed. That push failed, of course. But the point here is that the original CD/LP is not being copied. That makes it legal.

Radio.
Radio does not fall under 'fair use'. That is something completely different. Again, radio is not copying the material and selling it. As you listen to the radio, you do not have a hard copy of what you are listening to. Record labels and bands LOVE radio because it gives them mass exposure to many many thousands of people at one time, at little cost to the artist or record label. It is like free advertising for the CD/LP not to mention concerts and other band merchandise. Again: no permenent copy of the music is being made or sold. And, the radio stations pay fees to ASCAP and BMI (as do nightclub owners, any place that has a jukebox, and other people who play records or CDs in public) so that the artists get a bit of cash from these spins. Even the Bahia Mar hotel (home of the Hukilau) pays an annual fee to ASCAP and BMI to cover royalties for all music performed or played on the premesis.

ASCAP and BMI are artist-owned organizations that exist soley to champion the rights of recording artists. They are not the RIAA, which exists to champion record companies.

Billy Mure: Tim, your argument REALLY falls apart here. Billy was selling copies of his own music for his own profit. Just becasue they were on cassettes or CDRs instead of pressed CDs makes no difference. The money was going to the artist, he wins, everyone is happy. End of story.

RIAA: whether or not they are suing YOU makes no difference - they would go after everyone, if it was feasible to do so.

The music industry IS adapting their business model to the changes in technology and society, by launching sites like iTunes where you can legally buy MP3s. People like you who insist that trading or giving away music that is available to buy legally is an acceptible thing to do, and who refuse to see how radically different it is to give away thousands of copies of an MP3 versus one or two or even five copies of a mix tape are literally killing the chances of new artists making a living from their work.

The official swap meet for all Tiki stuff is still at noon in the ballroom. The rules for acceptable music swapping are posted several posts above this one. The rules, from a legal standpoint are quite lenient, actually. I am a music fan myself, of course, and have traded MP3s, mix CDs and other stuff actively in the past (and present).

The question you have to ask yourself, honestly and ethically, is: "am I taking bread off of someone's table by giving away this music?". If you can honestly answer 'no', then proceed.

Again, this is a pretty vague and lenient reading of the law, but we rabid music fans can usually get by with using it as a rule of thumb.

If you disagree with the law, then just do yourself a favor and ask Robert Drasnin, the Haole Kats, the Intoxicators, Tongo Hiti, King Kukulele, or Waitiki how they feel about you copying their CDs, and they will all, I am sure, let you know their opinion on the subject. And it won't be pretty.

For the last time: selling or trading of digital copies of material **for which active copyright can be clearly demonstrated** (i.e. for sale currently by a legit source) is not acceptible, at Hukilau, or anywhere else.

This means that about 15% of all classic Exotica and 10% of all classic Hapa Haole is off limits.

Is this too restrictive for you, Tim?


 
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Kaiwaza
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 06, 2003
Posts: 459
From: Waikiki Beach, Hawaii
Posted: 2005-09-13 11:37 am   Permalink

I find this whole area of discussion so interesting and yet don't quite know what to make of it. In the end, it's the legal system trying to keep up with technology and, of course, in the end technology will win..I mean, what's the purpose of mankind creating all these accessible technologies if we don't use them?
I don't know exactly how this will work, but I can imagine a future where musicians aren't making their money from sales, because there won't be any. I understand the legal/moral concerns...but you can not stop technological progress and many of your "average every day people" have music & video duplicating ability now. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds in the years to come.
Having said that, I agree with some earlier posts that it seems like it certainly OUGHT to be ok to trade and sell CDrs of LPs that are not commercially available...damn the folks who are holding the copyright and not UTILIZING the material!
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Swanky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5008
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2005-09-13 12:10 pm   Permalink

<<The question you have to ask yourself, honestly and ethically, is: "am I taking bread off of someone's table by giving away this music?". If you can honestly answer 'no', then proceed. >>

Clearly we all are saying 'no'. For the most part, there is no bread to be put on the table. Out of release music has no money to make. We are not robbing anyone of sales since there is nothing in existense for them to sell.

What you are really getting at is more about if I was burning a CD from a CD or perhaps even an LP which is in release now. However, that's not what we are doing here.

The way I look at it is that, just as radio is promoting artists and leading to sales and interest, so am I and everyone else sharing a mix CD of their favorites. If I was trading a complete copy of the Haole Kats CD, they should take me in the corner and pummel me. If I had a song of theirs on my mix, and the person hears it for the first time and now knows they love it and need to get over to their site and buy the whole CD, that's promotion. "Fair Use." (Purely an example. Everything I have is off 20-40 year old records.) Regardless of whether the record companies fought radio, they lost. The promotional value of radio was said to offset the usage fees for the same music.

And though Billy Mure was selling his own music, I bet the RIAA did not get their cut and would take him to court rather quickly if they thought there was any money in it.

None of us is going to research if our CDs are "legal". It turns a fun trade of obscure music into a police raid.

Don't get me wrong though. I am not in favor of screwing over artists. My main argument is that there are a lot of uses of music that are being attacked because they assume it hurts sales with no proof, and that there is just as good an argument, if not better that says it works as a promotion and leads to more sales. And I think the industry has been rather much Ludites about it all and could have chosen to adapt, but instead has chosen to sue their customers and campaign for laws that stifle creativity and technology before it's even born.

To get way off topic, suing a P2P provider for music swapping is like suing the phone company when someone plans a bank robbery over the phone.

So, James, are you gonna swap CDs with us or not? I wanna hear the crisp sounds you get through your LP to CD system I have read about.
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Swanky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5008
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2005-09-13 4:12 pm   Permalink

We'll see how this works. I could not figure out a way to convert my Nero file to a Word or other file. I can copy and paste the data elsewhere, but that'll take a little time later.

Right click and "Save Target As..." or the appropriate Mac option.

I print my covers in Word, and 2 fit to a page, so:
http://www.hukilau.org/TCimages/2%20covers.doc

An insert:
http://www.hukilau.org/TCimages/Hapa%20Haole.doc

The Nero file for the liner notes and CD label:
http://www.hukilau.org/TCimages/hapa%20haole.ncd

If you'd like me to put your files on my server to share for this, send them to me. I'll fix the links and email them back to you for you to post.

Maybe James and I should have the first annual Hukilau debates. But I'd rather debate sweet drinks vs. sour than music industry and copyrights.

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Announcing Swank Pad and Crazy Al's Molokai Maiden!


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I, Zombie
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 14, 2003
Posts: 539
From: the Les Baxter Grotto (Minneapolis)
Posted: 2005-09-13 6:17 pm   Permalink

Hi all,

I've been away from tiki-central for awhile, and thought I'd check in.

As the one who started this thread, I'm now concerned that I shouldn't be burning ANY CDs for trading. I have no idea if someone owns the rights to the old exotica music I listen to. Nor do I know how to find out (or have the time to find out).

Given the rules layed out by the Hukilau, I won't be bringing CDs to swap. I respect Hukilau's position -- especially as a first time attendee -- so I hope people understand and don't hold it against me.

Looking forward to the event.

Aloha,

I, Zombie



 
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Traitor Vic
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Posts: 428
From: Greenville, SC
Posted: 2005-09-13 8:24 pm   Permalink

Creepers!

Sounds as if all the fun has been taken right out of this one, boy howdy. Too bad I won't be getting that check for $7 million that I hoped would magically appear in my mailbox because I traded a cd containing a few tracks from the "Ports of Paradise" album, by Alfred Newman and Ken Darby, to someone for something else just as interesting and valuable. I suppose that anyone who would have liked to have heard the version of "Now is the Hour" from that album will have to go to their local Tower Records, order a CD copy from Capitol, sit down, and wait for it to be remastered, produced, packaged, released and shipped. Perhaps, if they don't leave the store, they'll be the first in line to get a copy and won't lose out to the rabid hordes of 16 year old girls who rush in to buy it the second it arrives.

It almost takes all the fun out of my being able to personally starve to death the children of Al, Ken, vocalist Mavis Rivers, a ton of talented musicians, the stockholders, staff and management of Capital Records, the staff of some Litho shop someplace and, since it was released as a cooperative effort, the staff and management of the Matson Navigation Company.

I guess that, if I don't do that one dastardly deed, the mysterious check for $7 million will be multiplied by thousands, go to them instead, and they will feed their families.

[ This Message was edited by: Traitor Vic 2005-09-13 23:37 ]


 
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theARTFINK
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Jun 02, 2002
Posts: 40
From: behind the green door
Posted: 2005-09-13 11:49 pm   Permalink

this doesn't have anything to do with music but it's in the same ballpark. being a fellow artist (visual) I have seen my work being sold and bought and traded at conventions,and hang in tattoo shops that were reproductions of the original print run. now I got paid for the originals and the original run of prints,but not for these copys,bootlegs what have ya. I've come to the relization that this will always happen and there's really not much I can do about it. and I really don't feel like anybody's taking bread off my table, but it sure pisses you off regardless. being an artist it would be nice to have someone say don't sell,trade,swap this guys work at least not here at this convention (which people almost always do secretly and out in the open!).I know it doesn't sound like much,but it would make me happy. so all technicalities about the music industry and who owns what,when or how someone gets paid aside what I think james is trying to say here is simple: PLEASE don't trade,sell,swap etc.etc.etc. non-original copys of other peoples work at the hukilau.if you want to out in the parkinglot in the trunk of your car,thats your business but not at the offical function.Quite simple. sorry to rant on and see ya at the hukilau.

[ This Message was edited by: theARTFINK 2005-09-13 23:51 ]


 
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Humuhumu
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 3599
From: San Francisco
Posted: 2005-09-13 11:56 pm   Permalink

I think that the Hukilau organizers' request can be pretty much summarized as "please don't trade duplicates of songs that people can buy." That seems like a pretty simple and reasonable request to make.

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tikibars
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 11, 2002
Posts: 2024
From: Aku Hall, Chicago
Posted: 2005-09-14 08:18 am   Permalink

Ah, Humu, if only I had your gift for simplicity and brevity.

 
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freddiefreelance
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Feb 15, 2003
Posts: 2990
From: San Diego, Ca.
Posted: 2005-09-14 2:14 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2005-09-14 08:18, tikibars wrote:
Ah, Humu, if only I had your gift for simplicity and brevity.


And if we all had her good taste in clothes, and her shopping skills, and her boundless energy, and her sharp mind, and her scientific ability, and her Bird of Paradise mug, and her programming skills, and her generocity, and her ability to get along well with others...

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[ This Message was edited by: freddiefreelance 2005-09-14 14:15 ]


 
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hanford_lemoore
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 23, 2002
Posts: 1869
From: Tiki Central
Posted: 2005-09-14 3:06 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2005-09-13 20:24, Traitor Vic wrote:
I suppose that anyone who would have liked to have heard the version of "Now is the Hour" from that album will have to go to their local Tower Records, order a CD copy from Capitol, sit down, and wait for it to be remastered, produced, packaged, released and shipped.



How many times have you traded a not-currently-released Capitol recording?

For every time you did, how many times did you email, write, or phone Capitol and ask them to release it (on CD, or just a download)?


 
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Traitor Vic
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Posts: 428
From: Greenville, SC
Posted: 2005-09-14 10:41 pm   Permalink

Great question, Hanford! Of course, I would expect nothing less from you. As a matter of fact, I've never traded any entire unreleased album. I have, however, downloaded a few for myself and made copies of several that I have copied from albums I own for interested friends (absolutely no Trading of any type involved here).

As far as contacting Capital Records is concerned I must admit that I have not done that. I have, however, contacted representatives from Warner Brothers, A&M and Philips Records (both A&M and Philips are now owned by the Universal Music Group which is owned by the French water company Vivendi). In each case I was interested in procuring (paying for!) copies of music that I had previously owned (already paid for once!) but lost (had stolen from me, lost in a fire, dropped a speaker on, etc...) that had never been re-released on CD and, in most cases, were pretty ancient and hard-to-find to begin with. In each case I was told that the music to which I was referring did not hold enough mass-market appeal to warrant it's availability. In other words... This Is WORTHLESS MUSIC!!! It's not worth their time to make it available. It's not worth their time to hire flunkies to convert it to a digital format at minimum wage. It's not worth their time to post it, thereby taking up valuable server space that could be being used by Ashley Simpson. Hell! In the case of Philips Records, it's not even worth their time to look it up in a catalog (or database) to see if it has ever been released at all! Or if the Swingle Singers ("the Swinger Singles?") actually existed, for that matter. At least the Warner Bros. representative assured me that some small amount of what I was asking about would, eventually, become available online. It did, however, only as a result of it's eventually being released on CD, at which point I simply went to the store and bought the CDs.

The message that they gave me was clear. They own it. I don't. If they want me to have it, they'll sell it to me and I'll buy it. If they don't want me to have it, I'm not supposed to be able to get it. Nuff sed. Shut up. Go away.

So here's the deal... If you're sitting around waiting for the CD reissue of the entire Reparata and the Delron's album "Whenever a Teenager Cries" to come out, you better get awfully comfortable. If you get a hankerin', anytime soon, to listen to The Premiers' "Farmer John" album and shake that thang like you used to, you might as well just go ahead and sit that thang down. If you find yourself wanting to hear the first Rank and File album (you know... the one with Alejandro Escovedo on guitar) again for the first time since you got your CD player in 1985 and immediately tossed your turntable into the trash, you might want to, instead, go find a supply of Chill Pills and wash the lot of them down with a big ol' bottle of Chateau de Disappointemente.

Don't get me wrong. I love Capitalism! I'm a Huge Fan! I dream of a day when every single piece of recorded music ever assembled is available (at a reasonable fee directed toward the writers, artists and producers responsible) for download at a single site (probably originally developed by Apple Computer, sold to Microsoft and finally owned - along with Apple and Microsoft - by the French water company Vivendi).

That hasn't happened yet. That's probably not going to happen in my lifetime.

I think Humuhumu had an idea that hit the nail on the head. At the same time, when I asked once before...

Quote:

On 2005-09-11 20:07, Traitor Vic wrote:
Although I can't be completely sure of the copyright status on all of it, I do know that it was all recorded from out-of-print records that are not readily available and are impossible to play in any CD player. Most of it will be stuff I've burned myself, but I'm sure some will be stuff that I've downloaded from Sharity sites that adhere to the same "out of print only" principle. That being the case, there may be copies of songs by Denny or Baxter, but they will be burned from the original vinyl and not the remastered Ultra-Lounge CDs.

If that is a standard that is not acceptable I'd appreciate being told what, specifically, is. I think we can put together a pretty huge pile of great music without breaking any laws.



I was told...

Quote:

On 2005-09-12 18:05, tikibars wrote:
To address Traitor Vic's confusion (quoted above), just because you make a CD from an original vinyl copy of a record doesn't mean it's legit. It is the music that is under copyright, not the medium.



If that was meant to clear my confusion (and I don't mean any disrespect to Tikibars by this) it did so by telling me that, because I am unaware of the specifics of arcane copyright laws, I am not allowed to trade music at Hukilau. I'm not trying to make this any more complicated than it needs to be, but we probably need a specific standard set, at this point, for what is and what is not acceptable. I can guarantee that I was only ever planning on bringing copies of songs that I, myself, have spent hours and hours copying from albums that I have bought at local thrift stores and the one decent Vinyl Shop about and hour from our home. I have even spent hours replacing songs by Don Tiki, Combustible Edison, Seks Bomba, Twisty and the like, with songs from old records on CDs that I had made to be played at parties and gatherings around the ol' house here, just so I could feel good about taking them to Hukilau to trade.

One simple, straight-to-the-point, overall statement from the Hukilau organizers that gives us a frame in which to work, and which would help to absolve them from any responsibility (in case the President of Capital shows up and raises hell about my CD with Alfred Newman and Ken Darby's version of "Now Is the Hour") would be, not only sufficient, but wonderful at this point.

[ This Message was edited by: Traitor Vic 2005-09-14 22:53 ]


 
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Swanky
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5008
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2005-09-15 10:27 am   Permalink

The trouble of the modern age! It seems this is an issue simply because we are trading CDs. If we all trade cassettes, I am gathering, there is no issue. Let's get old school then. If we lower the quality and trade a tape, no one will care. A tape isn't uploadable on your PC, so it's all cool. IMO, that's a little bogus in these relative terms. In grander terms, there are issues. But we are not trading music that the industry cares about. If they did, we would all have access to it and then we wouldn't swap, we'd recommend and buy. "Eden's Island" is out there on CD, but you can't find it in any stores any more. It seems to too obscure even as a CD!

So, let's have the Hukilau tape swap! No rules about that. Or better yet, an "unofficial" event to completely stop the worrying. But, it's not official. It's not on the website. Maybe it's gonna be in the program? No liabilty if it's no "sanctioned."
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Fez Ape
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 13, 2005
Posts: 104
Posted: 2005-09-15 10:34 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2005-09-15 10:27, Swanky wrote:
Let's get old school then.



8 Track anyone? Reel-to-Reel maybe?


 
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Johnny Dollar
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Oct 01, 2003
Posts: 2953
From: Baltimore, Maryland, PNG
Posted: 2005-09-15 10:44 am   Permalink

Quote:
On 2005-09-15 10:27, Swanky wrote:
Let's get old school then.





 
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