||I think That discussion needs a new soapbox to say Good words.
Grand Member (7 years)
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
From: capistrano beach ca
|Posted: 2005-11-16 4:52 pm  Permalink|
Sometimes it takes someone yanking on your chain to make you take a long hard look at where you are going.I am probably one of the most non traditional based on the medium I use to create .In the 5 or so years I have been sculpting I never looked in any book said "I want to make one of those",to me that is not art,it is copying and that limits the most important aspect,creative thinking.There is such a great reservoir of free knowledge on TC I would not want to see that change.I get inspired by like minded artists and for the most part that is what I have found from the members here.Keep taking chances/push the envelope and great things will happen!We are part of evolution.The future is ours and based on the number of tiki huts that are popping up in So.Cal. we all have a great tiki future ahead of us!
[ This Message was edited by: capotiki 2005-11-17 10:28 ]
Joined: Sep 28, 2005
From: Jensen Beach,fla
|Posted: 2005-11-17 05:29 am  Permalink|
Aloha to all my friends here!!!!!!!!!!
I don't have access to a computer except at work (lost alot last year from Hurricanes) so sorry if I'm a little late for the party.
I was very sorry to see many who got dissapointed and upset at the other site. DON'T DON'T DON'T stop carving or being creative in any way and most importantly supportive to everyone. Art has no boundries and no constraints and No one person knows what tiki is . Tiki is different to each of us and thats what make it all REALLY REALLY Cool.
I love to carve even being a hack, but I love to carve tikis. In the job that I have(firefighter,, I see many pretty bad things and we have outcomes on calls that break my heart),so for me carving is therapy and I'm sure it is that way for my others.
I wish I had the money to buy all of those books to read but I have 3 children and bills to pay and even if I did I still like to create as do many others and I'm sure that the pictures of what is in the books is but a Fraction of the carvings that have been Saved,,so who knows what else has been lost or what they look like. they may-have looked like Gmans tikis,Tikis by gary,Benzarts,Palm city tikis , Boskos tikis,Raffers tikis, Tikis by Marcus,Geckos tikis.............I could go on and on with many more of you INCREDABLY talented artists but not ONE of us really knows,so to each and every one my brothers and sisters out there , PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE come back if you were bummed and DON'T ever stop carving and ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS keep thinking OUT SIDE OF THE BOXXXXXXXXXX. ALOHA TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU, ALOHA your friend MOONEY
Joined: Jan 21, 2004
|Posted: 2005-11-17 12:54 pm  Permalink|
Sometimes we say things that start fires. What I mean by fires is that words can spark a heated debate, they can cause someone to be inspired, offended etc. There has been some flaming done lately some of wich I added to. After much thinking I decided to go and relieve some stress by hammering on a log....
With no plan or thought here is what started to take shape, no its not traditional.....
Some times the things we say can come back and burn us even if we meant well. So if in the recent events I offended you or anything of that nature I am sorry. And as for taking up carving bears ......what was I thinking?
Grand Member (8 years)
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
From: Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
|Posted: 2005-11-17 1:05 pm  Permalink|
Good man, Rodeo! I'm sure it would have been a tiki bear anyway.
Joined: Jan 09, 2004
From: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
|Posted: 2005-11-17 3:54 pm  Permalink|
You are right AA. Just think about what the Bear club peeps would have said---"Man that sure ain't no bear, looks more tiki to me. Send that guy over to the tiki place, maybe they'll like his bears".
Thanks RT, I'm glad you had a change of heart/
|I dream of tiki|
Joined: Jan 12, 2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA
|Posted: 2005-11-17 4:17 pm  Permalink|
I too was rather disheartened by THE THREAD and still am. In my opinion, the other thread reached into a deeper issue than just how someone chooses to create tiki, whichever approach taken. Its not just about creating tiki but perhaps even down to how we interact regarding how we perceive Tiki in this subculture we call Tiki Central.
While we are fortunate to have much aloha spirit in general, there is a tension underneath that surfaces every now and then. Some of it is simple and petty. Another form of that tension can be perceived as snobbery in a negative connotation than the "this is my opinion and personal standard" point of view. I've seen it in threads that are almost as old as TC. I believe that negative something does greater harm to this community than a faux, not quite on the mark tiki.
As for myself, I love tiki but won't ever fit in as one of the hard core. To be me is to have many eclectic interests, including the cultures themselves which some would question how tiki they are - even though the primitive art is hanging in some of our favorite restaurants (PNG, for example).
I guess what I am saying is as a community we need to step back, look at ourselves and do some thinking. How is this negative tension being created, if at all? How can we agree to disagree? How do we deal with something that can be deemed not in our subculture's concept of tiki? How can we do it better and maybe still learn and educate at the same time?
If we are all here to escape, than lets escape the very pressures that many of us are here trying to forget for a little while.
From you friendly neighborhood amateur sociologist,
Joined: Nov 30, 2003
From: Kansas City, MO
|Posted: 2005-11-17 5:20 pm  Permalink|
Dear Ben, I know you can carve ANYTHING ! and I know that you have produced your amazing works in many different types of woods. But this thread is definitely from an olive branch. THANKS
Now to everyone: I keep thinking that if this whole discussion (from both threads) had occurred in person, with all parties present, the discussion would have had a different tone to it. What I mean by that is that I imagine it as a conversation where we can hear the passion in a persons voice and we can respond immediately and clarify things better. There is a certain disadvantage to this whole computer thing. Because although it is great that we who are literally all over the globe can converse about our favorite topic here on this fabulous website, there is a risk of mis-interpretation and you cannot see the reaction on the face of a person to the words you have chosen.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to smooth anything over or make excuses or allowances for anyone or their choice of words; mine included. I just know that we have all been drawn here to Tiki Central for the same reasons and we all have room to grow (personally and artistically). I for one will try to keep an open mind and strive to improve my work as well.
Please, lets all remain friends because I really look forward to the day when I do meet fellow TC'ers in person.
I can't think how awkward it could be to know there are grudges being held here on TC. I believe in the true ohana spirit! Thanks everyone, 8FT Tiki
I once was lost.....but now I'm found.....
Joined: Jan 25, 2005
From: Chicago - IL
|Posted: 2005-11-17 5:35 pm  Permalink|
On 2005-11-17 17:20, 8FT Tiki wrote:
Now to everyone: I keep thinking that if this whole discussion (from both threads) had occurred in person, with all parties present, the discussion would have had a different tone to it.
It can still happen at the carving workshop next year right? I hope it's still going on although I didn't get any more details than from what's on the original thread.
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
From: Bucks County, PA
|Posted: 2005-11-17 6:31 pm  Permalink|
There are a few people that I have interacted with here on TC. These people I trust and respect and I admire their work greatly. Now I am new at carving and have much to learn. But I really don't care to hear from someone I don't know that I need to carve traditional and to study the masters and how great an artist he perceives himself. I enjoy carving to relax and to create. I work six days a week, my wife is ill, so my time to carve is limited. What I've learned so far is to find my own style and not to knock off someone else's work. It is difficult with all of the Tiki images that I see here on TC and on the net. I want to learn different techniques of carving. I don't want to carve just tikis either. I never was one to conform to anyones demands or ideals. I will continue to carve but as for posting it's not necessary.
I have worked with glass in all forms for around 20+ years and I never needed to show other artist my work to feel well. I am very critical of my quality of work. I always push myself to do better than I'm capable of and I will continue.
Ben- I will the funds in December to purchase anything you would be so kind to sell to us.
Joined: Dec 02, 2003
|Posted: 2005-11-17 6:41 pm  Permalink|
Great thread, Ben! I hope all is well with you these days. By the way, I appreciate the encouragement that you and other artists have always given to me and other artists here. It really is priceless. Personally, it motivates me as an artist to not just create, but to strive to create BETTER. Cheers to ya!
[ This Message was edited by: sam gambino 2005-11-18 07:36 ]
|I dream of tiki|
Joined: Jan 12, 2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA
|Posted: 2005-11-18 4:24 pm  Permalink|
bump. this thread needs to stay close to its partner
Joined: Mar 25, 2002
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
|Posted: 2005-11-19 06:53 am  Permalink|
OK then, here is an addition to my other post:
I think this impersonal internet writing IS dangerous, because it gets taken the wrong way quite often. This seems to be the case here. A lot of people mistakenly felt addressed by this, and also, a lot seem to have misunderstood BK.
I might be totally wrong (and if I am, shut up BK, I am talking here ), but when BK wrote about TRADITION, he meant BOTH: Ancient Polynesian art, AND midcentury Polynesian pop. Some seem to have misunderstood it as a "stick only to the pre-contact carvings" call.
In my understanding, that was never his intention, he rather suggested to look back and see how the Poly-pop masters of the 50s were inspired by these originals, and then re-did them in their own way. THAT whimsical creativity is what inspired me to collect all the great visuals and compile them into my book to define American Tiki into an pop art form in it's own right.
And that is the creativity that came through in the book's pages, and induced the Tiki revival, becoming an art form again, and again totally in it's own right. Tiki took new forms, some that some of us might not favor, but it cannot and shall not be just a copy of midcentury Tiki. (The most exciting thing to me is that is much less commercially driven, but more individual: More self made home bars than real restaurants, more self motivated carvers than hired hands.)
And I do believe that BK is just as much into this revival than any of us, yet concerned about it's quality. I think he is right to point out the fact that in the Tiki revival, a certain percentage of Tiki art copies from....the Tiki revival, and thus becomes repetitive. That is where the reminder to look at the classics comes in: Use them like the moderns used them, as inspiration, to then do it your own way.
Gone are the days (to me at least, and many TCers I am sure) when the pure appearance of the word Tiki was a rare occasion, and the sighting of a Tiki-like shape was exciting, and the basic motto was "Any Tiki is a good Tiki".
There is a lot of the same Tiki out there. There is a a lot of bad Tiki out there. There is a lot of too far out Tiki and a lot of Non-Tiki being called Tiki out there, but that is the price of popularity. And with "out there", I do not mean Tiki Central! And, by far, the good outweighs the bad (and the ugly is a matter of taste).
Yet I want to voice this to avoid that this whole discussion leads to a total loss of critical thought and writing, I think it is important to keep the focus on what Tiki is, and it is not a free for all shape shifting thing, but a style. If there is a lack of integrity in it, I reserve the right to point it out, as anybody here should feel free to do too.
Here are two recent examples (not to single anyone out!):
See what I mean?
Joined: Dec 02, 2003
|Posted: 2005-11-19 09:28 am  Permalink|
I certainly see and respect your point, Sven. My feelings are that there is room for both far-out and classic-inspired. I must say that I do enjoy far-out IF it is done in a creative manner. I agree that there is tasteless too (we'd all rather not have to put up with that). As far as classic versus far-out goes, there are these differences in just about every genre - music, visual art, literature, film, product design, architecture - even in comedy. Why should the tiki genre be the exception? The artists in the '50s and '60s expanded on it, so it is inevitable that artists now will push it even further (hopefully in a tasteful manner). There is natural progression in everything - everyone doesn't have to like it. Who am I to tell someone HOW to create unless they ask for my constructive criticism? Then, I am happy to offer it in a tactful manner. Some are thin-skinned - I don't consider myself to be, but at the same time, I respect those who are. If I don't like a design, then I look at what I like.
I appreciate that you chimed in as I wondered what you had to say. After all, I feel that this topic is tailor-made for your input.
These are just my thoughts. Please forgive me if I rambled... I've inhaled quite a bit of oil-based paint over the years .
[ This Message was edited by: sam gambino 2005-11-20 17:48 ]
Joined: Jan 09, 2004
From: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
|Posted: 2005-11-19 10:03 am  Permalink|
Manokoa, As far as I am concerned, this does NOT effect the upcoming carving seminar. I want to thank everyone for adding their input, even though most of you never saw the original post, it is best left alone. I believe all parties have "Kissed and made up" and we can go on from here. I apologize if I have offended anyone during the heated discussion.
"Can't we all just get along? Now where did I hear that?
Joined: Oct 07, 2005
|Posted: 2005-11-21 08:46 am  Permalink|
LOL well this is what I put in the other thread, and it works just as well here for what I need to say I personally love seeing all the styles and ideas that abound here, and would be saddned if anyone stopped creating because someone decided it wasn't the "right" way to do it. Hell if the art world worked that way we would never have even figured out perspective!
I'm not a carver & I'll admit to not reading all the replies to this thread.
What concerns me is are we discussing TIKI as an art form? Or are we discussing TIKI as a cultural Icon or are we discussing TIKI as a spiritual thing? Personally I find them all to be valid but different concepts.
TIKI as an art form should be accepted in whatever shape form the artist envisions it. If you don't like it that’s totally fine, however it does not make it any less artistic. Art is subjective there is no simple way to say that’s right & that’s wrong.
TIKI as a cultural Icon depends on which culture, time, socio-economic strata your discussing.
TIKI as a spiritual thing, well it's not my personal spiritual history, so were I to try and produce a "true spiritual TIKI" I would have to study it to understand it.
That does not however change the fact that as an artist I can play with the idea of the spirituality.
There is always a place for traditional art, for keeping a tradition alive and honest and true to the original meaning of that art, keeping the traditional methods and designs. However that is not the ONLY way to do it.
well thats my take on it.
edited for crappy typos only
[ This Message was edited by: wicked 2005-11-21 08:47 ]