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Tiki Central Forums » » Creating Tiki » » Other Crafts » » A 'lil rant on criticisim
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A 'lil rant on criticisim
foamy
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Joined: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 590
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Posted: 2006-12-14 12:07 pm   Permalink

See below.

[ This Message was edited by: foamy 2006-12-15 05:00 ]


 
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McTiki
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Joined: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 1962
From: Sunny Florida
Posted: 2006-12-14 12:19 pm   Permalink

Foamy,

I don't know Grog, but, I know and understand his humor. In the particular thread that I believe you are referring to, it is Grog's envy of the talent within the particular artist, not criticism, that is portrayed.

Mahalo


 
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foamy
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Joined: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 590
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Posted: 2006-12-14 12:24 pm   Permalink

Did you read the above post? What didn't you understand? I'll fix it if people aren't understanding it. Or, maybe I should just retract the whole damn thing.

[ This Message was edited by: foamy 2006-12-14 12:27 ]


 
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Monkeyman
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Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2370
From: Vista, CA
Posted: 2006-12-14 12:34 pm   Permalink

What kind of criticism do you want?

I break up criticism on self made art into a few different categories.

*Technique- if you are carving perhaps the cuts arent deep enough or maybe the piece didnt get much past the rough stage and should have been cleaned up more. Maybe you are brushing on stain when you should be ragging it on. But even in the technique its an opinion. There is no right way just perhaps a way that many agree upon.

*Style- This is another one that is kinda tough. If you are deliberately trying to copy a particular style then I suppose it could be graded on how well you do that. If its your own style or own design then who is to say that it is good or bad? It could be a style that the vocal minority like or it could be a style that is only appreciated by a select few who choose not to say anything.

*Purpose- Lets say you were designing a mug that only held 5 ounces of liquid but you intended to be a full sized tiki mug.. I would say make it bigger. Say you made a tiki bench that couldnt hold the weight of the person using it.. I would say make it stronger. But most artwork doesnt have a purpose. Its just for display.

*Money- If you are trying make stuff to sell then in the end you WILL know if you did it right cause people will pay what you ask and you will sell all of them. If you must lower your price or have a hard time selling then that still doesnt mean you did anything wrong but maybe just havent found the right place to sell your product. There is a buyer for every product at the right price.

Criticism also defies the concept of hobby art because most of us dont make a living doing it and want to enjoy it. If we were told our artwork sucked for reasons X Y and Z then it might diminish the enjoyment or discourage people from doing it all together.

If you want criticism I would ask very specific questions. How can I make the finish more rich? How do I stop the cracking? My mug mold doesnt pull off correctly how should I modify the sculpt.


Regarding Grog.... Im not sure what post is being mentioned but I have personally seen his professional portfolio (he gets paid to be an artist for a living) and would wager that he might one of the best artists on Tiki Central. His work is fantastic.

Quote:

On 2006-12-14 12:07, foamy wrote:
Somebody just shoot me. I don’t get it. Then again, that’s nothing new. I don’t know of any artist, craftsman or anyone exercising their talent, that doesn’t like and or need constructive criticisim. I used to ask for when I started posting my stuff. Nobody gave it. I stopped asking. I tried giving it. That went over like a lead balloon. Very much like GROG’s suggestion’s. Which were right on the money. The artist never got a chance to reply, everybody else sure as hell did though. When did they all become aces? I’m sure everyone thinks GROG’s giving the thread the finger is GROG’s way of disrespecting the work. I don’t know GROG, but if that was his real intent, do you think that would be his first move? I suspect if he didn’t like it he just wouldn’t bother. I don’t think many people here have a clue. Everybody’s all touchy,”How dare he criticise that work!” Get over it. There’s a lot, repeat, a lot of folks here that could or should benefit by constuctive criticisim. Me, especially. People pay good money for that kind of insight. Here, any sort of critique is rejected out of hand. Let me reiterate: I just don’t get it.

Okay. Blast away.





[ This Message was edited by: Monkeyman 2006-12-14 12:44 ]


 
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Swanky
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Joined: Apr 03, 2002
Posts: 5065
From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2006-12-14 12:53 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2006-12-14 12:34, Monkeyman wrote:
What kind of criticism do you want?

I break up criticism on self made art into a few different categories.

...

If you want criticism I would ask very specific questions. How can I make the finish more rich? How do I stop the cracking? My mug mold doesnt pull off correctly how should I modify the sculpt.



That's very well stated.

I see a lot of stuff with a final line of "Tell me what you think?" or "Any advice is appreciated." What should I say? "It looks awful." "I can't believe you posted that." "Kewl" or maybe "Give it up." I mean, it's impossible to interpret, so, for the most part, the status quo on TC is to be silent unless you say nice things. Value judgements are not called for.

So, more direct questions might get better responses. Although, that can be hard to articulate on these forums.

I got a ton of help at Coon Tiki when I could go over various problem areas of a carving with Danny or BK or Ben or Al watching and immediately show me what I was doing wrong and how to do it right. That's why I thought doing that event was so important. You cannot come close to that sort of hands on advice over the 'net.

So, it may be tough to get much useful critique here.
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foamy
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Joined: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 590
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Posted: 2006-12-14 1:20 pm   Permalink

Nevermind.

[ This Message was edited by: foamy 2006-12-14 13:24 ]


 
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Tamapoutini
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Joined: Aug 30, 2006
Posts: 1530
From: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Posted: 2006-12-14 1:35 pm   Permalink

Foamy: Your point was sound & understood.

Constructive criticism is fine as long as it IS constructive & given by someone who knows what they are talking about*.

As a fully qualified Daddy* & a non-qualified but experienced carving tutor I do know one thing: The most important thing for anybody learning anything is ENCOURAGEMENT. I believe the role of the (good) teacher is much undervalued & even a little misunderstood. The words of the teacher (& here I am referring to anyone who takes it upon themselves to offer 'constructive criticism') can make or break the spirit of the student, so must be chosen carefully. In contrast, the average TC 'Prop' is fine encouragement & humour.

Again: Educated, constructive criticism is fine & I dont think there's anyone here who would disagree.

My 2 cents (worth about .4c US)

Tama


 
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pdrake
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Joined: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 1767
From: las vegas
Posted: 2006-12-14 2:15 pm   Permalink

i know grog. i know he was giving the finger in fun and probably because he's jealous he doesn't live in hawaii. i wish everyone would be as helpful as ernie, especially talented professionals who know more about light, structure and balance in art than i will ever, ever know.

everyone should be lucky enough to get to know grog. i agree with monkeyman, he's probably one of the most talented people on TC. he also has one of the best senses of humor i've seen in a person.

foamy, you're also a hell of an artist. i'll critisize your stuff anytime you want. i'll start now . . .

needs more red.

man, work stresses me out enough. don't need it here. i get critisized all day long for my crappy art at work.


 
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hewey
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Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 4278
From: Sydney, Australia
Posted: 2006-12-14 6:24 pm   Permalink

Criticism is great as long as it is constructive and supportive/encouraging. Benz is the master at it, as far as I am concerned. I know Ive PMd Benz a few times with questions, and hes PMd me back with pics with cut lines and stuff. Bloody hard online, but he makes it work somehow.

Honestly, I dont think TC has enough constructive criticism. HEAPS of support and encouragement, but the criticism is lacking. Whether we are here as hobbyists (like me) or full time professional carvers, as artists we all basically aim to perform to the best of our abilities, no I actually mean to increase our abilities.

On the other hand I dont give constructive criticism on here myself, because its not the "done thing". Sometimes I PM close mates with feedback because I know they can "take it", but I dont do it as a general rule.

On the pinstriping forums Im on, most of the guys are full time pros. They give great feedback to people. I take a minute to think about their perspective/feedback. Often I agree, sometimes I just think "thats not what Im trying to acheive". I dont take it personally.

How about, people who want criticism say so when you post your art. That way people will know you're okay with getting it. On the same hand it should only be constructive and encouraging (but not candy coated too much).

I dont know what Foamy posted, but I think its something that we should discuss.
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frostiki
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Joined: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 434
From: Mobile, AL
Posted: 2006-12-14 6:55 pm   Permalink

I'll second that one. I know I'm guilty of telling people that their stuff is great, but not offering critiques. While I'm being sincere when I offer my praises, sometimes I'll see little things as an objective observer that could be tweaked just a little and help things along, but I hold my tongue.

I know if that I've posted on here and asked what the TC Ohana thought, I got great compliments (I'll take them, don't get me wrong) but I'd also like to hear the constructive feed back as well.
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Monkeyman
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Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2370
From: Vista, CA
Posted: 2006-12-14 7:29 pm   Permalink

I guess my perspective is that I am my worst critic.

I always disect every error and discrepancy to death. I hand over stuff to customers that I think is riddled with problems and errors. They often gush with praise because they like it and dont see the minutia that I do.

but thats just me. If someone posts a crappy carving expecting praise then perhaps they need to evaluate their fellow carvers work to get a better sense of what is good and what is not so good.

Its just such a personal perspective... its hard to nail down right wrong good and bad.

The best advice is given to a direct and specific question.





 
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Matt Reese
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Joined: May 09, 2005
Posts: 1155
From: San Diego
Posted: 2006-12-14 7:54 pm   Permalink

If you're gonna put stuff out there and want to grow as any type of artist you should be prepared for some criticism. I don't think it's cool to slam peoples work,but a little suggestion may go a long way. Sometimes this place gets a little too thin skinned. I think the comments made to any artist should be free from malicious intent and simply made to express the commenter's opinion of the art.
Great thread by the way.
Cheers.


 
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pdrake
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Joined: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 1767
From: las vegas
Posted: 2006-12-14 8:04 pm   Permalink

matt, while great and welcoming, your backyard is way too far down the stairs. you should move it up closer.

[ This Message was edited by: pdrake 2006-12-14 20:05 ]


 
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Monkeyman
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2370
From: Vista, CA
Posted: 2006-12-14 8:08 pm   Permalink

I concur.... my constructive crit for Matt is please get about 2 cubic ACRES of fill dirt and raise your backyard...

or simply lower your house about 30 feet.

Or install an escalator.

Or get Perry a plastic sled and we can send him down the iceplant to the backyard grass.....

I will build the jump out of plywood for his epic sledding descent.



 
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pdrake
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Joined: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 1767
From: las vegas
Posted: 2006-12-14 8:13 pm   Permalink

i'm sooo there!!

 
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