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Tiki Central Forums » » Creating Tiki » » Other Crafts » » A 'lil rant on criticisim
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A 'lil rant on criticisim
Tamapoutini
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 30, 2006
Posts: 1530
From: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Posted: 2006-12-14 8:23 pm   Permalink

Foamy: A constructive comment: Why not put the title back? People are discussing it anyway..?

Tama


 
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Aaron's Akua
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Posts: 1594
From: Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
Posted: 2006-12-14 8:41 pm   Permalink

Many good points here. When we ask for feedback on our work, I think we're all generally receptive to constructive criticism (or should be). Tiki Shark asked for feedback, Grog provided it, and it seemed pretty thoughtful and constructive (the written part I mean - not sure where the finger came in...). I just didn't see where Tiki Shark had a problem with it. I'm sorry Foamy retracted his original post - it made sense to me.
_________________

"Ah, good taste! What a dreadful thing! Taste is the enemy of creativeness."
-Pablo Picasso


 
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GROG
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 6671
From: Tujunga
Posted: 2006-12-14 8:54 pm   Permalink

Sorry, I didn't know about this thread when I posted the following onTikishark's thread (and yes I know it's not third person GROGspeak.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I joke with Brad because he's a friend, and I really respect and admire his work. But I also think it is important as a fellow artist to help other artists to improve their work, and "Oh that looks great" isn't always the best way to help them. Especially if you see something they may not. It's not easy for artists to be objective about their own work, so it's good to have another objective eye see it. Try flipping a drawing over and light it from behind. You'll see your drawing has more mistakes than you thought.

So many people post stuff and ask for criticism, and I mean "constructive" criticism, but nobody really seems to really give any on the board. I find good, constructive criticism an important part of growing as an artist. If everybody always just says, "Oh that looks great!", it may help with the artist's confidence, but it doesn't really help them improve their skill or to be able to look at their own stuff with an objective eye. In animation, my artwork is criticized every day. It's not easy
always having people tell me what's wrong with my art, but I'm a much better artist for it. I think "criticism" has a negative connotation, and there definitely is negative criticism, so I think most non-artists not used to having their art "constructively" criticized view any sort of criticism as negative. And since most of the people on TC aren't professional artists and aren't used to having their art critiqued all the time, I think the majority are shy about giving and receiving constructive criticism. Brad(Tikishark) is a professional, and I know he would appreciate good constructive criticism.Criticism is also very tricky to give, because it can have negative effects even if it was meant in a positive way if worded wrong or taken in the wrong way which is another reason I believe people on TC steer away from it. I appreciate you standing up for me, and I know the right people will understand how I meant my critique.

Thanks-------Ernie

---------------------------------------------------

And I agree------Encouragement is a very valuable part of it as well.



[ This Message was edited by: GROG 2006-12-14 21:49 ]


 
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pdrake
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 1764
From: las vegas
Posted: 2006-12-14 9:06 pm   Permalink

grog need more rogaine. sorry, just trying to help.

 
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Matt Reese
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 09, 2005
Posts: 1144
From: San Diego
Posted: 2006-12-15 05:59 am   Permalink

As far as criticism goes Pdrake and MM are way out of line. Those stairs are only there because I had the yard lowered. Jeez, it's the only way I could think of to get in shape every time I want a drink. Besides a little "suffering for your art" is good for the soul eh? (Friggin' wisenheimers).
Cheers.


 
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Tipsy McStagger
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 3493
From: HELL
Posted: 2006-12-15 07:16 am   Permalink

..sounds like a broken record...i believe i bitched about this very thing in a post long ago about how people sugar coat critisim as opposed to giving an honest assessment or opinion.....even if they don't know what they are talking about, at least it keeps folks on their toes and the juices flowing....sometimes my opinions of others work can be harsh, but you must realize that they are not value judgements, just my opinion....and i expect the same in return from all of you as well in regards to my work....if your critisism is correct i will humbly except it...if not, i will waste no time in embarassing you and your lack of insight/knowledge in front of all your tiki friends here on tc.....again, i will expect the same from you!!

 
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Jungle Trader
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 04, 2003
Posts: 3730
From: Trader's Jungle Outpost, Turlock, Ca.
Posted: 2006-12-15 08:25 am   Permalink

shutup and drink

 
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Tamapoutini
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 30, 2006
Posts: 1530
From: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Posted: 2006-12-15 1:18 pm   Permalink

[quote]
On 2006-12-15 07:16, Tipsy McStagger wrote:
...even if they don't know what they are talking about, at least it keeps folks on their toes and the juices flowing....
quote]


*You want honest opinions Tipsy?
-I think this is the dumbest statement I have heard on the topic! Just my opinion. I may not know what Im talking about though... duh

Tama




 
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Tipsy McStagger
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 3493
From: HELL
Posted: 2006-12-15 1:30 pm   Permalink

when you get over yourself...go back and think about what i'm really saying and it should be obvious that any dialogue is good dialoge that keeps the channels open....new ideas and insights are often stumbled upon in the course of critisisms if one is willing to read between the lines. anything said can be a source of inspiration.

 
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Tamapoutini
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 30, 2006
Posts: 1530
From: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Posted: 2006-12-15 2:12 pm   Permalink

Not upset by my 'harsh opinion' are you? Thought that's what you wanted..?

*Ive been back & thought about it & still disagree. I just dont accept that 'any dialogue is good dialogue' & also feel that reading 'between the lines' is a pretty difficult task in a forum like this. If there is insight to be gleaned 'between', why not just write it ON the lines. People arent mindreaders...

I maintain that CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is valid, but why not tone down the 'harshness'? Did you read what I said about encouragement?

As for 'getting over myself', Ill need further explaination; just cant make out what's between the lines. Exactly what must I get over? Im only trying to help.

Tama



 
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Cammo
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 1941
From: San Diego
Posted: 2006-12-15 3:02 pm   Permalink

As the Monkeyman touched on, the problem with criticism on TC is that we all do this stuff out of love. Comments hurt. It's exactly like having someone say your kid is ugly. Them saying your kid is cute works a leetle bit better, even if the kid's face scares woodchucks.

By the time anybody posts anything here it's usually a completed piece. The criticism is way too late, which makes it more frustrating. That's why pictures of Tikis in progress are so interesting, Benz for one seems to zero in on those.

And, there's no way around it, if you ask for opinions yer gonna get them. It's interesting how everybody has a different perspective, I'd focus on that more than who says what and why.

Also, that drawing of GROG giving somebody, anybody, the finger is a loose cannon. I've had the dubious pleasure of meeting GROG more than once and can attest he never gave me the finger, never even tried. He tells a pretty good Sinatra joke, though.

Finally - Matt's backyard is worth the climb. Here's a critical suggestion, though, again to riff on MM; why not put in a BIG STEEL SLIDE? Then you got one direction covered, anyway.


 
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hewey
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Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 4278
From: Sydney, Australia
Posted: 2006-12-15 5:43 pm   Permalink

Tama, I dont think people have to be experts to give criticism. The more experience people have, the better equipped they are to give technical advice eg. try this tool, try this method etc etc. But most people can give feedback like it looks too plain, unbalanced, not tiki enough etc etc.
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foamy
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 589
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Posted: 2006-12-15 6:29 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2006-12-14 20:54, GROG wrote:
my artwork is criticized every day. It's not easy always having people tell me what's wrong with my art, but I'm a much better artist for it. I think "criticism" has a negative connotation, and there definitely is negative criticism, so I think most non-artists not used to having their art "constructively" criticized view any sort of criticism as negative.

Criticism is also very tricky to give, because it can have negative effects even if it was meant in a positive way if worded wrong or taken in the wrong way which is another reason I believe people on TC steer away from it.

And I agree------Encouragement is a very valuable part of it as well.



That's the whole thing in a nutshell. The whole thing is to encourage and instruct—if possible, without giving offense. I'd like to see this forum become a resource for people looking to not only show their work, but to learn and grow as artists, as well. There's certainly plenty of talent and desire here and plenty of pro's able to help an aspiring artist along. That is, "if" they're willing to give advice and "if" they're willing to take it, in the spirit in which it is intended.


 
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squid
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 30, 2002
Posts: 1462
Posted: 2006-12-15 6:31 pm   Permalink

Just to clarify: Grog's "finger" is a sarcastic CARTOON finger. I'm always honored to get it. It's all in jest and a symbol of his approval.

I don't post my stuff in progress for critique. Although it's important for the growth of an artist I prefer a one-on-one as opposed to a public forum.

I make my living as a commercial sculptor and deal with clients who want a specific "product". Many times the piece will go through several committes or individuals who all get input. If I'm translating another artist into 3-d, I always get their critique as well. It just wouldn't make sense not to consider and implement their input. I would be out of business if I didn't.

Wanna know which artists are the pickiest?...well I ain't tellin'. I'm a "professional".

So...when I finally get time to do my own mug designs or drawings, frankly I don't want to hear any critique until it's finished. It's selfish "me" time and I would never finish it if I considered that much input. If it's something I will eventually sell, my bank account will offer the ultimate critique.


But, if I ever change my mind and decide to post for critique, I hope I get the finger.


 
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Tamapoutini
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Aug 30, 2006
Posts: 1530
From: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Posted: 2006-12-15 6:43 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2006-12-15 17:43, hewey wrote:
But most people can give feedback like it looks too plain, unbalanced, not tiki enough etc etc.



Yes, but this sort of feedback isnt what I would call 'constructive criticism', but subjective 'value-judgement'. How does 'too plain' or 'not tiki enough' help anyone? 'Unbalanced' is more along the lines of constructive criticism as it uses established 'art-speak' to point out a particular aspect of a carving. Remember highschool art class; line/tone/form/shape etc...

Not wanting to make enemies here; I just know how hard/harsh it can be to hear negative feedback when putting work up for appraisal, esp when new to a craft.

Of course all are free to say whatever they like about a work.
Perhaps Foamy was right; non-topic, or moot-point: perhaps there will always be this irreconsilable difference of opinion..?

Tama


 
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