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The Buffet Rant and what it means.
phinz
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 196
From: Southeast of Disorder
Posted: 2010-07-16 03:29 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2010-07-15 18:08, lucas vigor wrote:
I stand by what I said. A lot of us involved in Tiki are more or less also caretakers of tiki, keeping it alive.




<edit>never mind. it wouldn't matter anyway.</edit>

[ This Message was edited by: phinz 2010-07-16 04:13 ]


 
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Thortiki
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Joined: Jul 29, 2006
Posts: 264
From: Maryland (Land of Pleasant Tiki Living)
Posted: 2010-07-20 01:45 am   Permalink

We have a Hawaiian themed restaurant "Coconut Joe's". They spent all this money on theme decor & their playlist is either Buffet or Regae, one or the other. Mentioned the music section of TC for the owner to check out.

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Staredge
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 15, 2008
Posts: 103
From: Martinsburg
Posted: 2010-07-20 9:03 pm   Permalink

Just curious.....if you stop looking at tiki culture through the prism of poly-pop archaeology and start looking at it as the escapism that it was......what's the difference?? No research is needed for parrothead culture, as it still exists and is thriving. Tiki culture died off, except for the hardcore, and is now being dug up and reborn. (bit simplified, but the basic idea is there) I've always thought that the two scenes are very similar in that they reflect escapism of the same type, but are products of their time period.

For the record....if you spent any time on a Buffett board you'd see a lot of hardcore, long time parrotheads (like me) making some of the same points made in this thread. I stopped going to shows for a long time because of the drunken frat boys. The scene has improved some.



Quote:

On 2010-07-15 18:08, lucas vigor wrote:
I stand by what I said. A lot of us involved in Tiki are more or less also caretakers of tiki, keeping it alive. Even those of us not directly involved in the creation of Tiki, are collectors or otherwise involved in doing research about Tiki. There is a lot in our world to explore and find out about. Not so with the parrothead scene. That's more like one big tail-gate party.

I am merely responding to the poster who said that we look a lot like Parrrot heads, what with all the hawaiian shirts, fat bellies and stupid hats.

I am saying there is a lot more to Tiki then that. Some of us may look like parrot heads, but this scene is vastly different from the buffet scene.

I know that is kind of hard for you buffet people to accept, because you so much want Buffet culture to be interchangeable with tiki culture.

Phinz, you seriously need to read any of Sven Kirsten's books to realize the crucial difference between us, and the generically bland buffet scene.

Buffet is to tiki as Kenny G is to jazz. There just is no comparison.




 
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phinz
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 196
From: Southeast of Disorder
Posted: 2010-07-21 03:20 am   Permalink

Hey staredge... Have you read A Pirate Looks at 50 and The Porpoise Driven Life, along with all of Sven's books? I have. I get it. Apparently many don't.
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2010-07-21 06:21 am   Permalink

Buffet is to tiki as Kenny G is to jazz. There just is no comparison.


They are two different scenes, people. What are you not understanding about this? Just because Buffet worship it is a form of escapism means that it is the same thing as Tiki? Or should even be discussed on tiki central, which is "celebrating classic and modern polynesian pop"?
Do you even know what Polynesian pop is?
Sorry, but you obviously are on the wrong forum.
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phinz
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 196
From: Southeast of Disorder
Posted: 2010-07-21 2:33 pm   Permalink

I don't think you get it, lucas. You're the one that said that parrotheads aren't artists, musicians, etc, but instead are just a bunch of drunks. You're the one that painted with a *really* broad brush. *You're* the one who's not getting it.

Your form of elitism is actually laughable. Tiki is a kitsch culture, filled with lowbrow art. There's no room for elitism.

All I can think of when "buffet worship" is ranted about is Siddhartha Gautama bellying up at Ryan's Steak House.

And yes, I own and have read all of Sven's *and* Jimmy's books. And I know how to spell Kirsten *and* Buffett.

You're awfully shrill. Usually the one that's the shrillest is the one whose ox is being gored.
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2010-07-21 2:39 pm   Permalink

As much as you want it to happen, this place will not be Buffet Central. Myself, and a few others, will do everything possible to stop the takeover by outside genres of the things we love the most about Tiki culture. Those being, exotica music, classic retro imagery, rum based drinks...and no frat boys. You may have Sven's books, but you obviously do not "get" them, nor understand the concept of this forum if you think Buffy has anything to do with Tiki. It never has, never will.

Escapism? We might as well talk about the LARPing you love so much as well.

I am SO sick of all the parrotheads and deadheads trying to infiltrate this forum. This forum should have some parameters. Oh wait, it does. "Celebrating classic and modern Poly Pop". I see no mention of Buffy nor of the grateful dead. (why I am mentioning the dead is becuase I have had this SAME conversation with all the loser deadheads who also don't get Tiki culture.)

Please talk about Buffy in Bilge. Buffy is not Tiki Music.

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[ This Message was edited by: lucas vigor 2010-07-21 14:44 ]


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Vince Martini
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 02, 2010
Posts: 277
From: Iki Pohaku, Arkansas
Posted: 2010-07-21 3:07 pm   Permalink

Go Lucas Go!!!

I don't deny anyone their musical outlet. As a one-time Deadhead, I know exactly what Lucas speaks of here in his response. Parrotheads are exactly the same way. That is, there is this sense of entitlement that their music and their scene (both Deadheads and Parrotheads) applies to anything and eveything, whether that be the case or not.

It is like a local symphony doing an orchestral salute to Jimmy Buffet at a pops concert. They schedule the event and all of these Parrotheads come flocking to the scene. But, once this event passes, none of these parrot patrons are ever seen gracing the doors of the symphony hall. That is because the symphony crowd is a hors d'ouvres and crudite crowd and will always remain this way. The Parrothead crowd will still be the machine frozen margarita and calamari crowd...not that there is anything wrong with that.

The most endorsing barometer proving that the Buffet scene and the Tiki scene are two differnet ships that pass with not even the slightest shared commonality? Well, just look to Jimmy Buffet for the definitive answer.

He is pretty much into an island state-of-mind. he is also into nostalgia and a culture that helps give definition to his "scene." Okay, so have we ever heard him metion anything tiki? No. Have we ever heard him join the fight to save some endangered historical tiki bar from the wrecking ball? Absolutely not. Have we seen Jimmy Buffet champion the resurrection of the career of some cult celeb like Yma Sumac, Martin Denny; or, launch any type of tribute record in honor of these artists that helped shape the tiki consciousness? Nada

Okay, so Jimmy Buffet is tropic-centric...as is Tiki. That is great. But, Jimmy Buffet is as tiki-centric as Tahitian culture is relevant to Key Biscayne. Ergo, Jimmy Buffet and my old pal Jerry Garcia can enjoy their seemless jams and catchy hooks in their own worlds and the tiki culture will continue to wax and wayne to The Ventures, The Stolen Idols, The Martini Kings, Frank Sinatra, Les Baxter, Esquivel, Dick Dale, the Swank Bastards, the Intoxicators and all the music that is relevant to this - the "tiki scene" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this reality.


Quote:

On 2010-07-21 14:39, lucas vigor wrote:
As much as you want it to happen, this place will not be Buffet Central. Myself, and a few others, will do everything possible to stop the takeover by outside genres of the things we love the most about Tiki culture. Those being, exotica music, classic retro imagery, rum based drinks...and no frat boys. You may have Sven's books, but you obviously do not "get" them, nor understand the concept of this forum if you think Buffy has anything to do with Tiki. It never has, never will.

Escapism? We might as well talk about the LARPing you love so much as well.

I am SO sick of all the parrotheads and deadheads trying to infiltrate this forum. This forum should have some parameters. Oh wait, it does. "Celebrating classic and modern Poly Pop". I see no mention of Buffy nor of the grateful dead. (why I am mentioning the dead is becuase I have had this SAME conversation with all the loser deadheads who also don't get Tiki culture.)

Please talk about Buffy in Bilge. Buffy is not Tiki Music.

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[ This Message was edited by: lucas vigor 2010-07-21 14:44 ]



[ This Message was edited by: Vince Martini 2010-07-21 15:11 ]


 
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phinz
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 196
From: Southeast of Disorder
Posted: 2010-07-21 5:10 pm   Permalink

Jimmy's actually a fan of Martin Denny, who played with him in Hawaii...

Quote:
Parrotheads are exactly the same way. That is, there is this sense of entitlement that their music and their scene (both Deadheads and Parrotheads) applies to anything and eveything, whether that be the case or not.



You're borrowing Lucas's brush, aren't you Vince?

There were "tiki" bars long after tiki died its first death, and they weren't all Buffett-related, but most didn't fit the narrow, elitist "tiki" definition. Most people don't get the difference. Ranting about it and getting into a lather isn't going to make any difference. Doing so is just mental masturbation. It may feel good at the time, but it doesn't do anything but get messy.
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2010-07-21 6:34 pm   Permalink

Phinz, by your username, it is clear where you stand on the issue of Buffy. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

My point about the active participation of tiki centralites within this scene versus the passive participation of Buffy fans at Buffy events, is valid....and sorry for you, true.

With Tiki central, almost everyone I know here (and scads of people I don't) is somehow involved in either the creation or preservation of tiki. Much like what Mr. Martini pointed out in his post above.

There may very well be artists and painters and doctors and whirling dervishes within the buffy movement, but not in the volume we have here.

Go to a large Tiki event and look how many creative vendors there are. Everyone has something to sell, things that they have PERSONALLY created. All are either vintage, or vintage inspired.

What is vintage for the Buffy crowd? The 1970s when Buffy had bigger sideburns then he has today?

The 70's was a wasteland for tiki. It's when all the tiki palaces started turning into crack hotels, and the tiki apartments (that used to house cool, swinging bachelors) started turning into HUD housing.

And Buffy was there, watching the demise and eating Cheeseburgers.

Tiki people have a sense of style. Buffy people would be just as happy getting their paraphanelia at PARTY CITY.

Our drinkers lovingly recreate the perfect Mai-tai from vintage and obscure recipes, or hunt them out at cool, hip tiki bars that have knowledgeable bartenders.

Buffy people drink their margaritas made from some mix you can get at Ralphs.

It's the difference between exquisite, detailed, selective and a personalized vision, and the bland generic, vaguely tropical imagery.

Ok, Buffy and the Buffy-heads who worship him are not evil or bad, or even stupid. But they ain't Tiki.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but Mr. Buffy the tiki slayer is not only NOT Tiki, his music would be considered "lite country rock" by pretty much any rational person. And within that genre, it STILL is not all that good!

Speaking as a musician, there is just not that much there in his music that any musician would find particularlt appealing. The songs are bland, mindless actually. The lyrics trite and contrived. The musicianship is only adequate because Buffy is rich and can afford to hire good musicians in his coral reefer band.

. I am personally aquainted with a master buffet-head, and he as much as admits this. His passion for Buffy is that he heard a buffy song at a particular poignant time of his life, and always associated the sound of buffy with good times. That's alright, as far as I am concerned...but let's get real about the whole Buffy thing.

When it comes to Tiki music, just look around this board at all the bands that are on here. They are all REALLY good and all filled with REALLY good, top notch musicians that would be the leaders and best musicians in ANY genre. I just can't say the same about the Buffy or the deadhead scene. Since I already find Buffy music amazingly mediocre, imagine what I must think about the Buffy TRIBUTE bands setting up in the parrothead parking lot!

Then there are the artists. Can you really, with a straightface, compare plastic parrots with the masterpieces created by people like Squid, LLT, Big Toe, Cammo, and so many others? Or the master bar buiding and decor of Bamboo Ben or Crazy Al? That's not even the tip of the iceberg, but do your research and discover the sheer breadth and depth of the talent on this forum. I can't even name them all! And don't get me started on the mug designers, or the researchers and authors. We are all centered around an idea, a concept, this thing called "Tiki". What are you Buffy people centered around? One guy, and the huge tailgate party his fans throw.

No comparison.
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phinz
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 196
From: Southeast of Disorder
Posted: 2010-07-21 7:36 pm   Permalink

Quote:
Ok, Buffy and the Buffy-heads who worship him are not evil or bad, or even stupid. But they ain't Tiki.



I never said they were. You're the one that seems to be convinced that that is what is being said by me.

You still don't get it. You waste a lot of time maligning a group of people that you obviously know little to nothing about. Judging by appearances and maligning a group of people based on a stereotype smacks of bigotry, plain and simple.

This lifetime musician appreciates the music for what it is. Good time music. Country music with steel drums. Just a plain, escapist, fun time. You can dig deeper and find some meaning in some of his songs (though some of them are just plain crap), or you can just listen and enjoy. Sometimes I don't want to listen to anything else. Sometimes I want to throw a brick through the speaker at the local bar because "A Pirate Looks at 40" is on for the umpteenth time that night. If I never hear Volcano or Cheeseburger in Paradise again it will be too soon. It's too bad you can't get past your narrow-minded views though, instead resorting to childish nicknames and denigration of a group of people just to try and get a rise out of someone you don't even know, apparently to make yourself feel better about yourself and your prejudices. Your attempts at personal jabs at me are just juvenile. Don't project your own beliefs on me and assume that I'm completely opposite you, and most importantly, don't believe everything you think.

Quote:
but not in the volume we have here



I beg to differ. Perhaps the ratio in this little, tiny, wonderful tiki community (a *very* small contingent, representing a miniscule part of the world itself, and even a small portion of tiki fans) is higher, but I *guarantee* the volume of musicians, artists, writers, successful businesspeople, great leaders, philanthropists, etc. who consider themselves parrotheads or at least fans of the man is *significantly* greater than the volume of same in this little bitty, awesome corner of the world.

Have *you* read A Pirate Looks at 50 or The Porpoise-Driven Life? I have. One is a memoir and the other is a treatise on philosophy and Buffett music. I love being a parrothead. I love tiki. The portion narrowly defined by a few "experts" as well as the new "tiki". I know how to separate the two subcultures. When will you stop assuming those who like both aren't capable of doing just this? You did not know what "tiki" was at birth. You had to learn about it. I guarantee your views on what "tiki" is have changed over the years. Hell, most parrotheads don't even know what "tiki" is. I'm trying to educate those I know who are malleable, but it's a difficult row to hoe. I know I'm not "cool" or "hip" for actually liking music that some people make a point of hating, but that's fine with me. I'm not attached to one concept or another, instead choosing to freely move between worlds. Each has its value and I refuse to devalue each based on someone's, or some group's, narrow-minded view of what is and isn't good. The concept of tiki has been watered down over the years, but being an elitist about what is "true" tiki doesn't do anybody any good. Instead of feeding your hatred of a subculture of people and writing them all off as a bunch of drunks with no style or passion, try educating them when they show ignorance of a subculture they've never truly been exposed to. It's a lot more productive. Take the time you're wasting here lambasting me for something you've assumed and put it toward something a little more altruistic. It will do your soul a lot of good.

I'm a collector of tiki artifacts. I'm a collector of midcentury artifacts. I'm a collector of other artifacts and I even create my own art. I'm also a parrothead. I'm not closed-minded about any of this and don't write others off just because they may not be into exactly the same thing as me. You shouldn't either.

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[ This Message was edited by: phinz 2010-07-21 20:18 ]


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Vince Martini
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 02, 2010
Posts: 277
From: Iki Pohaku, Arkansas
Posted: 2010-07-22 5:46 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2010-07-21 17:10, phinz wrote:
Jimmy's actually a fan of Martin Denny, who played with him in Hawaii...

Quote:
Parrotheads are exactly the same way. That is, there is this sense of entitlement that their music and their scene (both Deadheads and Parrotheads) applies to anything and eveything, whether that be the case or not.



You're borrowing Lucas's brush, aren't you Vince?

There were "tiki" bars long after tiki died its first death, and they weren't all Buffett-related, but most didn't fit the narrow, elitist "tiki" definition. Most people don't get the difference. Ranting about it and getting into a lather isn't going to make any difference. Doing so is just mental masturbation. It may feel good at the time, but it doesn't do anything but get messy.




Jimmy played with Martin Denny in 2004. I am fully aware of this. In fact, I am even aware of Buffet's quote from the occassion, are you? Jimmy said, "His [Denny's] music captured the magic of adventure and escapades. My own dreams used that music as a backdrop." It is a fantastic quote and one my friend, Dr. Greg House, shared with me when he gave me a Martin Denny collaborative CD for my birthday. You see, my friend, Dr. Greg is a HUGE Jimmy Buffet fan. In fact, he is above being a 'Parrot Head' he is more advanced than that!

I think emotionalism has crept into your responses (and perhaps Lucas' as well), Phinz. But, that is good. Emotionalism is the barometer of passion, and you are a passionate fan, obviously. But, to say I am using he same brush as Lucas is to suggest that I am not thinking for myself and just ringing his bell for some reason. I'll gloss over that insult, because I really don't think you meant to label me a mindless lackey for another's agenda. I know you to be differnt than that, Phinz -- especially after having the pleasure of becoming acquainted [with you] at Hukilau!

Re-read my post. Mine was not attacking Buffet -- or Parotheads. My post was emphasizing the point that the Parothead Nation and most tikiphiles are going in different directions. Wouldn't you say so yourself? My points were mostly comparing the crowds and not the artist, Jimmy Buffet. But, my one point about Buffet himself was focussing on the fact that he has always been a community action guy. Right? I mean, this is one of the wonderful things about Jimmy Buffet...saving institutions, promoting concerts for environmental causes, backing new artists. He uses his weight in very positive ways.

Ergo, I was noting that as an artist it does not seem that he (himself) has demonstrated a felt association to the tiki culture. If so, we would have seen him much more active and proactive within this culture. Jimmy Buffet doesn't dance around anything, he jumps in and gets immersed. Got that clarrified and out of the way.

My point about Parrot Heads and Deadheads is not at all disparaging...but very accurate. I mean, what else happens when a huge force of people merges into a fervant hurricane of shared interests? The group itself can go in many directions and adopt many 'other' things...like Deadheads becoming Phish fanatics.
Not me, I was a Deadhead, but can not stand Phish and all of their pretensions. You could not be a Deadhead unless you covered your body with patouli oil. I hated the damn stuff! There wwere certain unspoken dictates of the community. This community would take over certain instituitions, too -- like Bonnaroo...as the headless community searched desperately for its next Jerry Garcia.

This isn't always a bad thing. Parrot Heads have single-handedly been the driving force for saving manatees in Florida. Conversely, all of the 'save the manatee' efforts are now managed from mostly inside Jimmy Buffets fan groups...a prime exaple of taking over a cause, but in a positive way. Sometimes a crowd-force has a sense of entitlement...not the individual people involved, but the bigger, evolving body.

I don't begrudge you or any of my friends their Buffet CD's, the Buffet channel on Sirius or even a golden ticket to a Buffet concert -- SCORE! Parrot Heads are synonymous with good times -- as were Deadheads. Laissez les bon temps rouler!!! I just perceive it as being a differnt camp of enjoyment than that of the tiki tribes hanging out at Hukilau, Tiki Ohana, Tiki Oasis and at the average tiki bar. That is just my observation.


 
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