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Tiki Central Forums Tiki Drinks and Food The fight of the century: Mai-Tai vs. Suffering Bastard
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The fight of the century: Mai-Tai vs. Suffering Bastard
Jungle Trader
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 04, 2003
Posts: 3729
From: Trader's Jungle Outpost, Turlock, Ca.
Posted: 2003-02-23 10:42 pm   Permalink

Regarding Lucky's question on Mai Tai's, I'll count on the folks on these boards to keep the real Mai Tai's alive and well. So I probably won't order a Mai Tai on the S.F. Crawl. I'm counting on Martin to fix a real one (Foggy Grotto), if meeting there is still an option. And I'll rely on some of you other TC'ers to come thru when I get down south, (Newport Beach specifically). As for me I'm not much of a mixologist but I will drink it if you fix it, (drinkologist). I did try to fix a Shrunken Skull and came as close to the recipe as possible, according to Grog Log 1. There's that grenadine again. Is that just sugar syrup or what? 3 different bars 'round these parts make the Mai Tai with grenadine and/or prefab Mai Tai mix with pineapple juice. I'm counting on you guys to come thru.

 
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donhonyc
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Posts: 1173
From: The Quiet EAST Village
Posted: 2003-02-23 11:46 pm   Permalink

Stentiki..you crack me up
"Once you start mixin' from the Grog Logs there's no turning back... "
Beleive me...I want to get as far tiki underground as possible and not come back. Thanks for the tip on the books. I actually ordered Grog Log AND Intoxica aka "The Beachbum Berry Bundle" from Tiki Freaks Trading Post for the low-low price of $19.00 plus s&h. Can't wait to turn on to the other stuff. A word on Mai-Tais now: My ole lady and myself have been enjoying Mai-tais mixed under the Tiki lights here for a coupla weeks now and I'm ready to graduate to mixing Zombies, etc. Gotta tell you folks though that finding the Almond Orgeat has become somewhat of a special shopping chore...even here in the depths of Gotham where supposedly 'everything's available, anywhere, anytime'. To that I say 'HA!'. Even something as 'exotic' as Torani brand Almond Orgeat that you'd think would be available around the corner here in the Big Ole Apple requires a special trip across town to a 'special' coffee shop. On my last trip, I bought two bottles. I also have a 'special' store for Orange Curacoa. Seems that some liquor stores think that you can just use triple-sec. Example: when I went to one of the larger wine & spirit dealers here and saw they had no O. Curacao I asked one of the dudes and he told me to just use triple-sec. "Goodbye"....had to go to the other big liquor joint down the block where they actually had the stuff.

Now, as far as this whole pineapple juice/grenadine dilemma with Mai-Tais; this is just another example of what Tom Brokaw might call 'The Fleecing of America' on NBC Nightly News. Wake up cocktail drinkers of America and start doing it right! If your gonna have fun, for the love of pete...do it the way it was supposed to be done. Save the screwing up for your boss at work. And don't worry about getting fired, just invite him or her over for a couple of real Trader VIc (or Don the Beachcomber, whichever the way you look at it) Mai-Tais and watch that hourly wage double in no time. And if the rest of America wants pineapple juice let 'em have pineapple juice. I'll get my pineapple juice from a chunk of the stuff that garnishes my drink.
Mahalo!!



[ This Message was edited by: donhonyc on 2003-02-23 23:58 ]


 
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powerofthetiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 131
From: Baltimore
Posted: 2003-02-28 4:32 pm   Permalink

So what is the true recipe for a Suffering Bastard

 
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bamzeno
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 24, 2002
Posts: 106
From: Los Gatos, CA
Posted: 2003-03-07 09:37 am   Permalink

Hey donhonyc, did you ever try making those Zombies? My wife and I went over to our friends' house for an evening of homemade Zombies and a second viewing of Mullholland Drive. Of course, the focus of the evening was on Zombies, which turned into one of those sessions of creating our own concoctions, which then turned US into Zombies. At that point, our plans to find the answers to all our questions about the movie became quite unsuccessful.

Good luck with yours.

bamzeno

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Jungle Trader
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 04, 2003
Posts: 3729
From: Trader's Jungle Outpost, Turlock, Ca.
Posted: 2003-03-08 12:16 pm   Permalink

Okay, Anyone? I can't seem to find it but it's too late to look all over these boards. Where in Oakland or Cisco can we go to find the special ingredients for drinks. Trader Joe's, Hi Times up here? Let me know ASAP, we are leaving for the Crawl soon, Thanks in advance.

 
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donhonyc
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Posts: 1173
From: The Quiet EAST Village
Posted: 2003-03-08 4:48 pm   Permalink

Bamzeno-
Never got around to making the Suffering Bastard. The little shindig I had was to turn my friends on to the Mai-Tais I had been making. We did a little detour since one of my friends insisted on making 'Banana Cows'; something he said he used to have all the time at Trader Sam's when he was living in San Francisco. Those were pretty damn good too! AND we drank em outta the tiki mugs I got on one of my trips to the Mai-Kai in Ft. Lauderdale. All this whilst we had the DVD of Led Zeppelin-Song Remains the Same playing in background for audio/visual pleasure. Tiki and Zeppelin...actually works in a funny way. As the dude used to say on those old, old Alka Seltzer commercials from the early 70s....'Try it...you'll like it'

Aloha!


 
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Traitor Vic
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Posts: 428
From: Greenville, SC
Posted: 2003-03-08 10:23 pm   Permalink

I feel sorry for a lot of people. I feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to watch Mullholland Drive more than once thinking they'll figure out anything. I feel even more sorry, though, for people who make a drink out of anything other than Gin, Bourbon, Ginger Ale and Lime Juice and call it a Suffering Bastard. It's not one. Berry might call it that. Trader Vic called a lot of things by names they weren't born with. Who the hell knows what Don woulda called this thing while Combing the beach? It is always a good idea (as good an idea as squeezing your own juice) to study the history of each drink and create it as correctly as possible. Otherwise you could just pour some Grain Alchohol into some Hawaiian Punch and call it a "Scorpion"!

 
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thinkingbartender
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Apr 06, 2006
Posts: 62
From: London, England
Posted: 2006-04-10 04:27 am   Permalink

*Bounce*

Trader Vic claims to have invented the Mai Tai in 1944, yet doesn't mention the Mai Tai in his 1947 book, why?

I found this quote on the American Dialect Society:

"As everyone knows, "Trader Vic" (Victor Bergeron) created the "Mai-Tai" in 1944. It says so in his 1972 book."

Apparently the earliest reference to the Mai Tai is from 1961:

From GOURMET, July 1961, pg. 44, col. 3:

Q. Can you tell me how to make _mai-tai_--a drink made of rum, fruit juices, and honey? HARRY E. OHLRICH WARRENSVILLE HEIGHTS, OHIO

A. Here's how they make _mai-tai_ at one hotel bar. Other barkeeps add a cherry to the garnish or float an orchid on the drink.

Mai-Tai Royal Hawaiian

"Pour into a glass 1 jigger each of light and dark Jamaica rum. Add the juice of 1 lime and half the shell, and a dash each of orgeat syrup, rock candy syrup, and orange Curacao. Garnish the drink with a sprig of mint, a pineapple stick, and a sugar cane stick. Fill the glass with shaved ice."

Does anyone have any links, quotes from the court case between Don the Beachcomber and Trader Vic which involved the Mai Tai?

How did Trader Vic win?

Cheers!

George


 
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thinkingbartender
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Apr 06, 2006
Posts: 62
From: London, England
Posted: 2006-04-10 04:37 am   Permalink

Mai Tai! Trader Vic versus Don the Beachcomber!

Trader Vic's Recipe

*2 oz 17-year-old J. Wray Nephew Jamaican rum
*1/2 oz French Garnier Orgeat
*1/2 oz Holland DeKuyper Orange Curacao
*1/4 oz Rock Candy Syrup
*juice from one fresh lime

Shake with Ice, and then strain into Rocks Glass, which is filled with Crushed Ice. Garnish with the half lime, and a Mint Sprig.


Don the Beachcomber's Recipe

"Hawaii Tropical Rum Drinks & Cuisine by Don the Beachcomber" by Arnold Bitner

*1 1/2 ounces Myers's Plantation Rum
*1 ounce Cuban Rum
*3/4 ounce Fresh Lime Juice
*1 ounce Fresh Grapefruit Juice
*1/4 Falernum Syrup
*1/2 ounce Cointreau
*2 dashes Angostura bitters
*1 dash Pernod
*1 cup cracked ice

Pour all the liquids into a cocktail shaker. Fill it with ice and shake for about 30 seconds. Pour it all into a 16-ounce double old-fashioned glass. Garnish with lime slice, pineapple, and mint sprig.


The TV Mai-Tai seems like a more stream-lined drink than the convaluted DB Mai-Tai.

Where are the verifiable facts for getting to the bottom of the Mai Tai Mystery? Are there source for the time period? Cocktail books? etc?

Cheers!

George


 
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Tonnikan Jinn
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 143
From: La Conchita
Posted: 2006-04-12 9:05 pm   Permalink

I've made the Beachcomber Mai Tai before, and the Pernod absolutely ruined it. There was nothing pleasurable about that drink for me at all. Since I enjoy the Vic's version better, I will stick with that.

As far as the Suffering Bastard goes... I highly enjoy the Grog Log version. Any other recipe I've seen (even in my Trader Vic's books) just doesn't seem quite right as they are too similar to previously established drinks.

-T.J.


 
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thinkingbartender
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Apr 06, 2006
Posts: 62
From: London, England
Posted: 2006-04-13 07:56 am   Permalink

Hi Tonnikan Jinn,

How exactly were you applying the dashes of Pernod?

Alternate methods you could try would be 1) rinsing the glass out with pernod, then pouring it out. This will leave a coating on the glass, which will be more subtle. The other method is to put the pernod into a dropper bottle. I would recommend the same for Angostura Bitters.


Cheers!

George


 
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the drunken hat
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Posts: 331
From: Modesto, CA
Posted: 2006-04-13 11:33 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2003-02-23 14:56, Luckydesigns wrote:
Okay, this doesn't have anything to do with the Suffering Bastard, but since we are on the topic of Mai Tai's, why does every tiki bar in SF use pineapple juice and grenadine in their mai tais?
I don't get it and they taste nothing like a mai tai.




i think most of the blame as to putting grenadine into a mai tai comes from the mr boston guides. the oldest printing i have is from 1976 but in it the recipe is:

1/2 teaspoon powdered sugar
2 oz rum
1 oz triple sec
tablespoon orgeat
tablespoon grenadine
1 tablespoon lime juice

i think people got used to them being made this way. maybe thats how their neighbor bob made it this way at his cocktail parties or their bartender at the local corner bar had to look it up in the cocktail book and that became the standard.

looking at this recipe you can see how one would want to add more juice the mix to make the drink less syrupy. i think that this is the reason pineapple was added. just my thoughts.

does anyone have an old copy of mr boston's to see what the mai tai recipe is?
_________________
i ain't drunk.......i'm jus drankin. albert collins


 
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Tonnikan Jinn
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Feb 28, 2004
Posts: 143
From: La Conchita
Posted: 2006-04-14 5:24 pm   Permalink

Hey George,

I only used a couple drops of Pernod as carefully poured from a mini bottle (better than buying a whole 750mL bottle and NEVER using it) to make the drink. It really was the smallest amount that could have been used and still be able to say it's in the drink. I guess it is just safe to say that Pernod probably isn't my favorite. Angostura Bitters on the other hand... I dig it... go figure.

I will however give it another chance as this discussion has sparked my interest again. I just have to wait a week for another night off.

-T.J.


 
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thejab
Grand Member (first year)  

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 2986
From: Tradewinds Apartments, Alameda, CA
Posted: 2006-04-16 10:50 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2006-04-13 11:33, the drunken hat wrote:
i think most of the blame as to putting grenadine into a mai tai comes from the mr boston guides. the oldest printing i have is from 1976 but in it the recipe is:

1/2 teaspoon powdered sugar
2 oz rum
1 oz triple sec
tablespoon orgeat
tablespoon grenadine
1 tablespoon lime juice

i think people got used to them being made this way. maybe thats how their neighbor bob made it this way at his cocktail parties or their bartender at the local corner bar had to look it up in the cocktail book and that became the standard.

looking at this recipe you can see how one would want to add more juice the mix to make the drink less syrupy. i think that this is the reason pineapple was added. just my thoughts.

does anyone have an old copy of mr boston's to see what the mai tai recipe is?




My 1965 Mr. Boston Guide has the same recipe.


 
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Registered Astronaut
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Mar 05, 2006
Posts: 66
Posted: 2006-06-15 1:28 pm   Permalink

It seems like once trader vic experienced the popularity of the Mai Tai he used the Orgeat syrup/lime juice/light rum conbination in many other drinks (scorpion, menehune, and as you have illustrated, suffering bastard). The suffering Bastard recipe at the Tiki-Ti is a RUM drink that as far as I can taste and see does not call for bourbon. So even the Tiki-Ti's recipe is not congruent with Jeff Berry's unearthed Shepard's Head recipe. It seems apparent to me that given a bartender's available ingredients, he will call a drink anything he wants to.

Case in point: Navy Grog. No two places will mix the drink using the same ingredients. Trader Vic's tastes the best in my opinion, but given that the "grog" recipe from British Navy days meant lime juice and rum, a Navy Grog could be basically anything.


 
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