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Tiki Central Forums » » General Tiki » » Did Polynesian voyagers visit Colombia?
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Did Polynesian voyagers visit Colombia?
christiki295
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Joined: Apr 09, 2003
Posts: 3836
From: LA-2547 mls east Hawaii &5500 Easter Is
Posted: 2011-09-18 12:06 pm   Permalink

The San Agustin archaeological Park includes a wide variety of stone sculptures carved between AD 100 and AD 1200. The park contains an amazing array of separate stone sculptures, in the shapes of animals and warriors and human faces, some mythical, some realistic. They are carved out of volcanic rock -- some are over 4 meters tall and weigh several tons.


http://www.travelblog.org/South-America/Colombia/San-Agustin/blog-502867.html

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kraken
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Joined: Jun 17, 2011
Posts: 110
From: SF Bay area
Posted: 2011-09-20 10:40 pm   Permalink

An interesting question. More likely the taste for moai traveled from
Colombia to the Pacific islands, not vice versa, because currents and
winds down there make it almost impossible to sail eastward in the
sort of craft believed to exist then. Thor Heyerdahl demonstrated
fairly convincingly that travel from South America to the Pacific islands
was far more probable.

For a good short summary of Heyerdahl's experiments and reasoning,
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl



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Swanky
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Joined: Apr 03, 2002
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From: Hapa Haole Hideaway, TN
Posted: 2011-09-21 07:39 am   Permalink



Map of Kon-TIki voyage. 1947 I think.
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JONPAUL
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Joined: Jan 12, 2010
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From: Venice, California
Posted: 2011-09-21 09:09 am   Permalink

Indeed, christiki295, 70 years ago, Mr. Heyerdahl first published his theory about the connections between Polynesia and South America (International Science, New York: 1941).
11 years later his research on this theory was published in American Indians in the Pacific (Stockholm: 1952), and of course, he would go on to conduct some of the most well-known modern archaeological quests of our time, including the Kon-Tiki, Galapagos, Easter Island and RA expeditions.

His life's work makes for a very interesting and engaging read and any of the following are highly recommended:

Kon-Tiki: Across the Pacific by Raft (Rand McNally, 1947)
American Indians in the Pacific (George Allen & Unwin, 1952)
Aku-Aku: The Secret of Easter Island (Rand McNally, 1958)
Reports of the Norwegian Archaeological Expedition to Easter Island and the East Pacific (Gyldendal, 1961)
Sea Routes to Polynesia (Rand McNally, 1968)
The Ra Expeditions (Doubleday, 1971)
Fatu-Hiva: Back to Nature (Doubleday, 1974)
The Art of Easter Island (Doubleday, 1975)
Early Man and the Ocean: A Search for the Beginnings of Navigation and Seaborne Civilizations (Doubleday, 1979)
The Tigris Expedition: In Search of Our Beginnings (Doubleday, 1981)
The Maldive Mystery (Adler & Adler, 1986)
Easter Island: The Mystery Solved (Random House, 1989)
Pyramids of Tucume: The Quest for Peru's Forgotten City (Thames & Hudson, 1995)
In the Footsteps of Adam: A Memoir (Little, Brown & Co., 2000)
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TIKIBOSKO
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Joined: Oct 17, 2004
Posts: 331
Posted: 2011-09-21 11:20 am   Permalink

I posted this in the Kon Tiki thread a while back it may be of interest here?




Kon-Tiki-explorer-was-partly-right-Polynesians-had-South-American-roots.html" target="_blank">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8582150/Kon-Tiki-explorer-was-partly-right-Polynesians-had-South-American-roots.html


Bosko


 
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TraderDon
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Joined: Jun 15, 2011
Posts: 52
From: Pittsburgh
Posted: 2011-09-23 08:58 am   Permalink

This is really fascinating to think about. I've heard tales that ancient islanders traveled around or left their islands in small explorer groups never to return. Some Indian tribes in Southern California have said that their ancestors traded with travelers from the south pacific. I wish I could read more about this!
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AlienTiki
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Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Posts: 424
From: MAUI No Ka'oi
Posted: 2011-09-27 02:31 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2011-09-20 22:40, kraken wrote:
An interesting question. More likely the taste for moai traveled from
Colombia to the Pacific islands, not vice versa, because currents and
winds down there make it almost impossible to sail eastward in the
sort of craft believed to exist then. Thor Heyerdahl demonstrated
fairly convincingly that travel from South America to the Pacific islands
was far more probable.

For a good short summary of Heyerdahl's experiments and reasoning,
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl





It's already been
established that polynesian traveled to South America.


And here is an excerpt from that wiki you suggested

Heyerdahl's theory of Polynesian origins never gained acceptance among anthropologists.[10] Physical and cultural evidence had long suggested that Polynesia was settled from west to east, migration having begun from the Asian mainland, not South America. In the late 1990s, genetic testing found that the mitochondrial DNA of the Polynesians is more similar to people from southeast Asia than to people from South America, showing that their ancestors most likely came from Asia.[11] Easter Islanders are of Polynesian descent.[12][13]

Anthropologist Robert Carl Suggs included a chapter titled "The Kon-Tiki Myth" in his book on Polynesia, concluding that "The Kon-Tiki theory is about as plausible as the tales of Atlantis, Mu, and 'Children of the Sun.' Like most such theories it makes exciting light reading, but as an example of scientific method it fares quite poorly."[14]

Anthropologist and National Geographic Explorer-In-Residence Wade Davis also criticised Heyerdahl's theory in his book The Wayfinders, which explores the history of Polynesia. Davis says that Heyerdahl "ignored the overwhelming body of linguistic, ethnographic, and ethnobotanical evidence, augmented today by genetic and archaeological data, indicating that he was patently wrong."[15]




So Thor was wrong and Polynesians must know how to do the impossible, sail east.

Aloha
Eric



[ This Message was edited by: AlienTiki 2011-09-27 15:20 ]


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JONPAUL
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Joined: Jan 12, 2010
Posts: 140
From: Venice, California
Posted: 2011-09-27 09:00 am   Permalink

Your "established" link doesn't seem to work, Eric.
And,
HERE'S the corrected version of Bosko's link. (Good call--thanks, man!)

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Limbo Lizard
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Joined: Aug 24, 2006
Posts: 780
From: Aboard the 'Leaky Tiki', Dallas
Posted: 2011-09-27 12:00 pm   Permalink

The real "Kon-Tiki myth" is that Heyerdahl thought (those we call) the Polynesians came from South America. That is an oversimplified 'strawman' version of his theories. Read American Indians in the Pacific, for more detail and background.
As best I remember: Heyerdahl thought the Polynesians encountered by Europeans were descended primarily from Asians, who traveled the coast north, across into Alaska and down to the Pacific Northwest. From there, some migrated to Hawaii, and from there, to the rest of Polynesia.
They found some of the islands already somewhat populated... by descendants of the people who rafted from South America, bringing certain foods (e.g., sweet potato), and a penchant for monolithic stone carving. The Polynesians conquered them, assimilated some of the people and culture, and wiped out the rest.
Heyerdahl also encountered traditions and stories that many islands had an aboriginal people there, before the South Americans or Polynesians arrived. They were described as darker-skinned, of small stature and negroid-like features. These people the Hawaiians called the "Menehune"; the Maori and Rarotongans, the "Manahune".
Heyerdahl gave serious consideration to the chants, stories and traditions that had been passed down for scores of generations, and used them to help interpret archeological findings, in some cases.
Anyway, I can't remember nearly enough to do justice to Heyerdahl. He collected and studied an abundance of inter-disciplinary material, to form and bolster his theories (that book was over 800 pages). I'm also not saying Heyerdahl was correct. But I've noticed for decades that most experts who dismiss his "crank theory", or declare it's disproved, are not evaluating his actual theory at all.



[ This Message was edited by: Limbo Lizard 2011-09-27 12:24 ]


 
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Sabu The Coconut Boy
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Joined: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 2804
From: Carson, California
Posted: 2011-09-27 1:37 pm   Permalink

This is what I gleaned from Heyerdahl's writings as well - that there was contact between the Americas and Polynesia, but not necessarily migration. Especially powerful for me were the presence of sweet potatoes and pineapple as food crops in Polynesia, both of which had South American origins. The Polynesians' and South American Indians' names for the sweet potato also match closely and, in the case of Easter Island, match exactly. This wikipedia article is a good reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact

The word for sweet potato, at least, "constitutes near proof of incidental contact between inhabitants of the Andean region and the South Pacific", though the word for axe is not as convincing. That is, there appears to have been trade between Polynesia and South America, but not a mass movement of peoples.


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AlienTiki
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Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Posts: 424
From: MAUI No Ka'oi
Posted: 2011-09-27 4:11 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2011-09-27 09:00, JONPAUL wrote:
Your "established" link doesn't seem to work, Eric.
And, HERE'S the corrected version of Bosko's link. (Good call--thanks, man!)





Thanks for the heads up. I fixed the
link.

I think it's grasping at straws for people to believe that South Americans were the first Polynesians. Thor's theories don't hold nearly as much water as his leaky reed raft the kontiki did.
It's arrogant to believe that Polynesians couldn't travel east. However in the case of Rapa Nui Thor may have been partial right. The settlers may have came from Polynesia/Melanesia and South America and melted together into the Easter islanders that are left today. The quality of stone work
found on Rapa Nui that resembles Incan masonry is more proof than DNA. By the time of Capt Cooks third and final voyage the people of Rapa Nui were almost gone. So im sure that the Chilean islanders now have some indio blood. It's been part of Chile for over a century.

Mahalo
Eric





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TIKIBOSKO
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Joined: Oct 17, 2004
Posts: 331
Posted: 2011-09-28 11:53 am   Permalink

I had read in the San Diego Reader (a couple of years ago) that while developing an area at UCSD they came upon some native bones, an archeologist involved with the Kennewick Man said the remains resembled a Polynesian (which from what I understand is also a school of thought with the Kennewick Mans origin), this is all off the top of my head right now and I never read anything about it again, so this could be known to be BS or completely accurate by now?
People were probably traveling all over the place back in the old days.

Sorry about the link issue I have no idea how in enable that,

Bosko


 
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Limbo Lizard
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Joined: Aug 24, 2006
Posts: 780
From: Aboard the 'Leaky Tiki', Dallas
Posted: 2014-09-01 7:58 pm   Permalink

"The dimensions of Kennewick Man’s skull most closely match those of Polynesians, specifically the inhabitants of the Chatham Islands, near New Zealand, the scientists say."
Scientists: Mysterious Kennewick Man looked Polynesian and came from far away
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tikitube
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Joined: Apr 25, 2017
Posts: 273
From: Ozark Underwater Cliffs
Posted: 2018-02-05 1:02 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2011-09-27 12:00, Limbo Lizard wrote:
The real "Kon-Tiki myth" is that Heyerdahl thought (those we call) the Polynesians came from South America. That is an oversimplified 'strawman' version of his theories. Read American Indians in the Pacific, for more detail and background.
As best I remember: Heyerdahl thought the Polynesians encountered by Europeans were descended primarily from Asians, who traveled the coast north, across into Alaska and down to the Pacific Northwest. From there, some migrated to Hawaii, and from there, to the rest of Polynesia.
They found some of the islands already somewhat populated... by descendants of the people who rafted from South America, bringing certain foods (e.g., sweet potato), and a penchant for monolithic stone carving. The Polynesians conquered them, assimilated some of the people and culture, and wiped out the rest.
Heyerdahl also encountered traditions and stories that many islands had an aboriginal people there, before the South Americans or Polynesians arrived. They were described as darker-skinned, of small stature and negroid-like features. These people the Hawaiians called the "Menehune"; the Maori and Rarotongans, the "Manahune".
Heyerdahl gave serious consideration to the chants, stories and traditions that had been passed down for scores of generations, and used them to help interpret archeological findings, in some cases.
Anyway, I can't remember nearly enough to do justice to Heyerdahl. He collected and studied an abundance of inter-disciplinary material, to form and bolster his theories (that book was over 800 pages). I'm also not saying Heyerdahl was correct. But I've noticed for decades that most experts who dismiss his "crank theory", or declare it's disproved, are not evaluating his actual theory at all.

[ This Message was edited by: Limbo Lizard 2011-09-27 12:24 ]



I feel the need to resurrect this thread since I just finished reading Robert Suggs book "The Hidden Worlds of Polynesia". Not only does he create a straw man by stating that Heyerdahl believes that "all Polynesians" are originally from South America (which is not even close to what Heyerdahl suggested), but Suggs also treats Heyerdahl with ridicule and contempt.

It's really quite sickening to read a book that was written in a very professional and factual tone, and then to run across Suggs' little irrational tantrum about Heyerdahl near the end. What a creep!

Granted, Heyerdahl did take advantage of the natives at times by using their superstitions against them, to procure items for his museum. But I don't recall him underhandedly demeaning his peers that don't agree with him.


 
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EnchantedTikiGoth
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Joined: Dec 31, 2003
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From: Calgary, Canada
Posted: 2018-02-05 4:02 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2018-02-05 13:02, tikitube wrote:
I feel the need to resurrect this thread since I just finished reading Robert Suggs book "The Hidden Worlds of Polynesia". Not only does he create a straw man by stating that Heyerdahl believes that "all Polynesians" are originally from South America (which is not even close to what Heyerdahl suggested), but Suggs also treats Heyerdahl with ridicule and contempt.

It's really quite sickening to read a book that was written in a very professional and factual tone, and then to run across Suggs' little irrational tantrum about Heyerdahl near the end. What a creep!



I can't speak for Suggs himself, but usually what happens in these sorts of cases is that the actual researchers in a field resent the pseudo-scientists who have set the narrative in pop-culture. They want to be talking about all the cool research they've been doing, but they find they always have to be addressing the same questions over and over again, which have been roundly debunked over and over again.

Just by way of example, the other day a friend of mine posted this video to Facebook going on about how "nobody really knows how the pyramids were built, therefore, all my crazy-ass pseudo-scientific beliefs about cosmo-harmonic resonances are true!" So I posted a good scholarly article about how the pyramids were built in reply. I'm a professional educator specializing in earth sciences, and as much as I love Jurassic Park, sometimes I get a little tired having to address the misconceptions those movies have created.

[ This Message was edited by: EnchantedTikiGoth 2018-02-05 16:03 ]


 
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