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Tiki Central Forums General Tiki Mapping out tiki in Orange County, Calif.
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Mapping out tiki in Orange County, Calif.
RevBambooBen
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 12, 2002
Posts: 7918
From: Huntikington Beach
Posted: 2012-06-20 06:27 am   Permalink

ATP be glad with what you have here on Tiki Central.

Over on Facebook the Tiki's are "Way Off Topic!!!"




_________________


Bamboo Ben
Tiki Bars I've designed/built. TikiCat, Royal Hawaiian, Kona Club, Frankie's Tiki Room, Pacific Seas, Don the Beachcomber,Forbidden Island, Kon Tiki Tucson, Tiki No,etc....


 
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woofmutt
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 2639
From: Seattilite Telstar
Posted: 2012-06-20 08:37 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2012-06-17 23:21, SpaceAgeCity wrote:
I've started a collaborative mapping project on Google Maps to identify all the places in Orange County where you can still see a bit of classic tiki. Pinpointing places like Sam's/Don's was the easy part. But I'm also trying to identify the housing tracts that featured tiki/Hawaiian designs as part of their mix. See,...

http://goo.gl/maps/248S

Your help is certainly welcomed -- Just jump in and stick pins in neighborhoods where you know tiki-style tract houses or apartments can still be seen.

And before you ask: No, I'm not trying to locate all the spots where tiki *once* stood but has since been demolished. You won't find Christian's Hut on this map, for instance. But you will find tiki apartment complexes where the theme has been compromised but is still identifiable.

Anyway, check out the map if you want to. Contribute more sites if you want to. Or maybe just drive around and check out the locations nearest you. I think this should serve as a useful resource in the future.

Aloha!

Chris



 
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SpaceAgeCity
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Nov 17, 2002
Posts: 88
From: Orange County, CA
Posted: 2012-06-20 10:42 am   Permalink

Point out a neighborhood I marked on the map and I'll be happy to direct you to an image of at least one tiki-style house as a sample.

Why am I pointing to whole tracts instead of specific houses? Because if a tract has one tiki house it generally has many others. Also, you can't really look at a single tract home out of context. NOT taking time to look at the whole tract would be, well,... lazy.

Sven is also correct that you have to look at the INTENT of the architect or builder -- not just the current state of the building (which is often diminished by modifications).

Re the earlier, very well-intentioned comment about Wikipedia: Unfortunately, Wikipedia is a waste of time and energy. Much of what is posted there is dead wrong. And if you bother to correct the wrong material yourself, someone is certain to go in and replace your corrections with MORE wrong information. As a historian, I'd love nothing more than to see Wikipedia disappear forever. I prefer books written by reliable experts that we've come to trust rather than "a million monkeys with a million typewriters."

ATP: As far as A-frames go, I'm not sure what to say. You were the one who brought up the subject. I don't remember ever saying that an A-frame was a mandatory feature in a tiki building. I have no idea why you're trying to refute an argument that nobody is making.

Chris



 
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Mongoloid
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Posts: 590
From: Long Beach
Posted: 2012-06-20 10:44 am   Permalink

Not sure how to add a pin to the map but this one definately belongs.

350 Marina Dr
Seal Beach, CA 90740

http://www.tikiroom.com/tikicentral/bb/viewtopic.php?topic=31260&forum=1&hilite=tiki%20seal%20beach





[ This Message was edited by: Mongoloid 2012-06-20 10:58 ]


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AceExplorer
Grand Member (7 years)  

Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 2399
From: Deep in the Jacksonville Florida jungle.
Posted: 2012-06-20 11:47 am   Permalink

AceExplorer wrote:
Re the earlier, very well-intentioned comment about Wikipedia: Unfortunately, Wikipedia is a waste of time and energy. Much of what is posted there is dead wrong. And if you bother to correct the wrong material yourself, someone is certain to go in and replace your corrections with MORE wrong information. As a historian, I'd love nothing more than to see Wikipedia disappear forever. I prefer books written by reliable experts that we've come to trust rather than "a million monkeys with a million typewriters."
(End Quote)

Hey, Chris, come on... That's a very broad generalization and assertion. So you're doing all this research, you're clearly interested in sharing information with the tiki community, but not with the rest of the world? Even in the face of what is, to me, a glaring omission by the contributors in Wikipedia who are tiki-aware, you're not interested in considering possibly enhancing it with information which you know to be "truer" and "more correct?" This is, to me, a bizarre refusal when you have such a great opportunity. I encourage you to consider putting down whatever resistance you have and at least consider putting your "better information" out there. Whether we personally like Wikipedia or not, it is for many people a potential avenue into tiki discovery in addition to Tiki Central.

And regarding your comment that you would "love nothing more than to see Wikipedia disappear forever. I prefer books written by reliable experts that we've come to trust rather than 'a million monkeys with a million typewriters.'." I would like to encourage and see you exercise the discernment and critical thinking skills required to evaluate primary and secondary material and treat it accordingly. "Researchers" who quickly dismiss things without giving proper and scholarly consideration may draw incorrect conclusions or generate incomplete works and thereby tarnish their credibility. In your case now, your ability to put up a map and toss up a bunch of pushpins is being challenged by others who seek more depth and more effort on your part. You should get used to that, it's what critical readers and thinkers are accustomed to doing, and this may just be the beginning of these types of requests for you. After all, you're among "big boys and girls of tiki" here on TC, and some additional depth and analysis (and value) is desired.

For the record, I did visit your site yesterday and found the same as the others. I "drove around alot" with my mouse and it wasn't productive or engaging enough to warrant using it for more than a few minutes. So I think the suggestion that it's a bit too general in nature and would benefit from more focus is valid feedback. A great idea, but a bit too general.

I would like to see the A-frame discussion continue, it's led to some very productive dialog, kudos to you for initiating that.

Just some friendly thoughts and suggestions, seriously not trying to be harsh, hope this message comes across that way.


 
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Atomic Tiki Punk
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 19, 2009
Posts: 7048
From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2012-06-20 12:25 pm   Permalink

SpaceAgeCity I am sorry to have take the roll of Devils Advocate on your thread
and offer what seems to be negative feed back, I have gone to your Google site
and looked at every building that you have "pinned" and at surrounding homes etc.

The reason I have concentrated on the A-Frame discussion (I know I was the one who brought it up)
is that it seems to be the common & in many cases the only feature defining it as "Tiki" on the map

What I see is that almost all of the housing tracts share Mid Century A-Frame Architectural design flourishes
and no obvious Polynesian influences needed to define them as "Tiki"

These account for more then 50 percent of your entries (Which is why I said the work was lazy)
If you disagree please show us examples of why you would designate the properties as Tiki/Polynesian influenced Architecture
and not just Mid Century housing tracts as I consider them to be.

I want you to know I do appreciate your efforts in taking on a project like this
but I just want it to be accurate & true, Since you have taken it upon yourself to educate the public
on something all of us here are very passionate about.


[ This Message was edited by: Atomic Tiki Punk 2012-06-20 13:02 ]


 
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 4090
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2012-06-20 12:57 pm   Permalink

I think this is a hard assignment for anyone to undertake....because there are strict definitions of "tiki" made by some, and looser definitions by others.

I can totally see the viewpoints from both sides.

I personally like everything mid-century...in my mind, I don't make any distinctions between tiki and other forms of similar architecture, style, art, music....feeling that truly what we find in tiki is pure escapism, not realistic, not culturaly correct...and yes, influenced by atomic age and hollywood.

Never is this more clear then when you have many 50/60's era motels next to each other.

Example: One is called the Mana loa motel, has the lava rock walls, tikis, palm trees and perhaps a rock waterfall...right next door you have the Ali baba motel, with fake middle eastern style including arches, minarets, etc...then next to that you have the Covered Wagon hotel, then next to that the Orbit motel....and the funny thing is, various consistent googie-esque themes are used by ALL of them. By this I mean, fake rock, lava or other siding material on the walls, palms out front, shake roofs....another unifying factor is that all were built around the same time.

personally, my favorite genres are tiki, space age and safari....but they are literally interchangeable in my mind. Same goes for the music. les baxter, for example, did Space, African and tiki recordings. I am firmly in that camp when it comes to this stuff. And the only reason tiki occupies a position of primacy in my mind is because there is more documentation...thanks to people like Sven.


 
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AceExplorer
Grand Member (7 years)  

Joined: Apr 03, 2008
Posts: 2399
From: Deep in the Jacksonville Florida jungle.
Posted: 2012-06-20 1:41 pm   Permalink

Lucas Vigor: that's a thought provoking way of "cooking it all down," certainly makes sense, and makes me think about my affinity for tiki. But I'll readily admit that, to me, tiki is probably much more fun and immersive than googie, space age, and whatever "safari" style and architecture is. It seems that tiki was comparatively much more developed and pervasive in mid-century culture.

You're also right that SpaceAgeCity (Chris) has chosen a challenging assignment. This is all the more reason to proceed carefully and methodically. And if he's committed to doing the work, I'm committed to being supportive and patient. After all, as the once-popular saying of the time goes, Rapa Nui wasn't built in a day...

SpaceAgeCity (Chris,) rock on!


 
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 4090
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2012-06-20 1:54 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2012-06-20 13:41, AceExplorer wrote:
Lucas Vigor: that's a thought provoking way of "cooking it all down," certainly makes sense, and makes me think about my affinity for tiki. But I'll readily admit that, to me, tiki is probably much more fun and immersive than googie, space age, and whatever "safari" style and architecture is. It seems that tiki was comparatively much more developed and pervasive in mid-century culture.




if they had a "Safari Central", you know I would already be a long time member! Lot's of witco threads, stuff about Tarzan and other jungle movies....oh wait! We have that HERE!

I think one reason tiki is more popular then the other styles I mentioned is that not only is there more information, and it (like you said) is more developed...I feel there really is a tie in with travel....more people during the 50's probably went to Hawaii then Africa or the moon!

Of course, the Carribean also was there (as other people here have made threads about) and the whole Ricky Ricardo club tropicana scene was something that also had it's day during the whole Mambo craze....I always chuckle when Ricky sings "babalu aye"...which is a song about a Santeria orisha named, babalu aye!


 
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SpaceAgeCity
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Nov 17, 2002
Posts: 88
From: Orange County, CA
Posted: 2012-06-20 8:11 pm   Permalink

I apologize in advance if this reply comes off a little crabby. But I came to TC asking politely for constructive input and was promptly told that I'm ignorant and lazy. I have plenty of flaws, but I don't think those are two of them.

That said, I can't blame anyone for not seeing the tiki features on some of these tract houses. Sometimes they are fairly subtle, and they're usually disguised behind a half century of remuddling, re-landscaping, etc.

I think part of the problem here is that you're seeing this map as a finished product designed for public consumption. It is not. It's just one more tool in what has (so far) been a nearly 20-year line of research for me. Even at that, the map is only in its formative stages.

After the map is fleshed out, and after I follow it up with research into the builders, architects, context, etc, the "additional depth and analysis" you speak of will begin to emerge. Historical research is a project that never ends. And it's a little like eating quail -- It requires a ton of work to produce even the smallest amount of meaningful content.

Of course, most people don't let that slow them down. (Think of the half-baked things we've all read in newspapers about the tiki phenomenon and you'll see what I mean.) As my friend Jim likes to say, "There are a lot more people writing history than researching it."

Another point of contention stems from the fact that I'm using a rather broad definition of "tiki." For the purposes of this map, my working definition of tiki is this: Are there any visible and identifiable clues in the design of the building itself to indicate that the architect/builder/developer intended it to be seen or marketed as Hawaiian, Polynesian, or South-Seas-ish in style? If so, then it's tiki. (Admittedly, I've also thrown in a few other tiki-related sites, like the Tiki Farm warehouse, mainly for my own amusement.)

So far, my work on tiki has turned into lectures, articles, and a number of other things. I haven't been at this as long as Sven, but it's a fair bet that I've been studying tiki for longer than many of your so-called "big boys and girls." (Come to that, how many of even the most hard-core tiki aficionados are even *interested* in doing serious historical research on the subject?)

And yes, I *do* share the results of my historical research with the world. I spend a significant portion of my life doing just that. But I choose to do so via media that can't be re-edited by totally random yahoos. Wikipedia is a punchline among working historians. It fails to *reliably* provide accurate information and it frequently provides *inaccurate* information, (which we historians will spend the rest of our lives trying to debunk). Sometimes Wikipedia does get the facts right, (at least until someone changes them), but the casual observer can never be sure.

Chris


 
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Atomic Tiki Punk
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 19, 2009
Posts: 7048
From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2012-06-20 8:39 pm   Permalink

Well I am sorry we put you on the defensive, But I did not call you lazy, I said some of the work on your map was lazy.

Still you have not answered any of our questions, So I will be specific
For example from your Google Map, What is Tiki about this house and what is your criteria for defining it so?

"Tiki house at La Linda Place at 23rd St., Costa Mesa.
A fine example of residential tiki architecture."

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=211405210015828277083.0004c235a21dc6f756876&msa=0&ll=33.649145,-117.89728&spn=0.000004,0.003473&iwloc=0004c237a0b75ed2e0720

Edited for better link to Google map, Please copy & paste entire URL to go to specific entry.

[ This Message was edited by: Atomic Tiki Punk 2012-06-20 20:46 ]


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SpaceAgeCity
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Nov 17, 2002
Posts: 88
From: Orange County, CA
Posted: 2012-06-20 9:11 pm   Permalink

"For example from your Google Map, What is Tiki about this house and what is your criteria for defining it so?"

Thanks for giving me a specific question to respond to. I'm posting a photo of that particular house below.


(Larger image available at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/traderchris/4287297106/)

The shape of the roof is a classic tiki design. Check out Zulumagu's well-researched article on the "Evolution of the Hawaiian-Style Roof" (http://tikiarchitecture.blogspot.com/2011/03/evolution-of-hawaiian-style-roof.html) and while reading, take special note of the photos of the Aloha Inn Motel, the Castaways Coffee Shop, and the Ports O' Call Lagoon. I also detect a bit of Indonesian design in this house's roof, but your milage may vary.

Also note the snazzy outrigger beams sticking out from the front and back of the roofs of both the house and the garage. A dead giveaway.

The flagstone walls also don't hurt, but I suppose those could be later additions. The main feature here is the roof.

Chris




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Bora Boris
Mr. Unreasonable

Joined: Mar 25, 2005
Posts: 2617
From: Boogie Wonderland
Posted: 2012-06-20 9:28 pm   Permalink

Moving my post outta the crossfire!

Your response wasn't too crabby for me and I'm looking forward to the finished product, I'm gonna take the wait and see approach and if turns out slightly off I'll be happy to let you know IN ALL CAPS!

I'd also include Billy's at the Beach - 2751 West Coast Hwy, Newport Beach, 92663

The former location of the Original Orange County Don the Beachcomber at 3901 E. Coast Highway in Corona Del Mar, 92625.

The former location of the
Kono Hawaii at 226 S. Harbor Blvd. Santa Ana, 92704

The Victoria Manor Apts. in Costa Mesa at 989 Victoria St # A1 92627

It's funny I went to preschool in the Banning Branch Library building and then Kindergarten thru 5th grade next door at Eader, I'd call that a solid early influence.


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Atomic Tiki Punk
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 19, 2009
Posts: 7048
From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2012-06-20 9:38 pm   Permalink

Thanks for the specifics Chris, I think you are probably sick of hearing from me today so I will let some
others chime in, I would really like to hear some other opinions.

But I will leave you all with this: The La Linda House is a post Mid Century Ranch built in 1965


 
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SpaceAgeCity
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Nov 17, 2002
Posts: 88
From: Orange County, CA
Posted: 2012-06-20 11:34 pm   Permalink

Yes, I'll be interested to hear feedback from everyone. Was this Costa Mesa house designed with Polynesian Pop influence or not? Not that facts can be decided by committee, but it will be interesting to get various viewpoints.

Also, I don't think a 1965 construction date would negate the possibility of tiki influence. After all, the last gasp of tiki popularity didn't come until the 1970s. And in fact, the real building boom for tiki-styled tract houses in O.C. doesn't seem to reach full speed until 1962 or so.

I'm curious also, how you found a construction date for that house. It would be extremely helpful to know a reliable, easy-to-access source for that information. The city assessor "guess-timates" in most cities are often "off" by as much as 10 years. Those dates, in turn, are the ones parroted by real estate agents, Zillow, etc. The only reliably accurate method I've found so far (short of finding tract ads in the old newspapers) is to find the subdivision maps at the County, which give you a "bookend" date. (e.g. The houses had to have been built AFTER the subdivision date, and *probably* not too long after.) For individual parcels, I sometimes have to resort to using a combination of deeds and *County* assessment records (year by year) to figure out when the landowner started getting taxed on an improvement (i.e. a building). Luckily, sometimes using old directories or aerial photos can help winnow down the time period and save me some searching. Anyway, if you have a shortcut, *please* share!

Another thing that would be VERY useful would be a list of all the tract numbers (which is how they were recorded) along with the names used to market those tracts. I would be helpful to be able to look up Tract 1274 and find that it was the "Kona Gardens" tract or the "Stardust Tract." That would greatly simplify the process of finding ads and other marketing materials. Somehow, I don't expect to ever find such a list -- especially for the older subdivisions.

Chris


 
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