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What does tiki mean to you?
Phillip Roberts
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 09, 2003
Posts: 1603
From: OAHU/Seattle
Posted: 2013-10-21 10:01 pm   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-21 11:43, lucas vigor wrote:
there is a movement from some of the leading people to separate anything to do with Hawaii out of "tiki".



Really?

I heard there's a certain book about Tiki in Waikiki (Oahu) that seems pretty well received around here and one or two respected authors were kind enough to provide a quote for the back cover. Let me see if I can find a copy...


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Atomic Tiki Punk
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Jul 19, 2009
Posts: 6183
From: Costa Misery
Posted: 2013-10-21 10:58 pm   Permalink

Now that just "pops the lid on a jar of bad peanut butter"


 
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2013-10-22 06:08 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-21 21:18, bigbrotiki wrote:
Quote:

On 2013-10-21 11:43, lucas vigor wrote:
there is a movement from some of the leading people to separate anything to do with Hawaii out of "tiki".



That's just contention, YOUR black & whiting of my way of defining Tiki as its own art form - born out of your chip-on-your-shoulder you have about the perceived exclusion of Hapa Haole music from Tiki.



Hawaiiana and Hapa Haole also just don't grab me the way Tiki and Exotica do, so yes, I may be selective and subjective by picking what I think are the defining elements of Tiki.



I am fairly certain there is nothing "perceived" about it.

here is your own album you produced, and there is not one hapa haole track on it.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sound-Tiki-Various-Artists/dp/B0036ULAPU

That's fine. You did the work, you get to pick the tracks. But don't tell me it's only my perception, or that I have a chip on my shoulder, when we all know otherwise.

Look Sven, you have your own opinion, and you are entitled to it...please allow me to also have an opinion, even if it is different then yours. I admire the work you have done on tiki, I own both BOT and Tiki Modern, and love them....but you don't own tiki, ok?

[ This Message was edited by: lucas vigor 2013-10-22 06:25 ]


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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2013-10-22 06:12 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-21 22:01, Phillip Roberts wrote:
Quote:

On 2013-10-21 11:43, lucas vigor wrote:
there is a movement from some of the leading people to separate anything to do with Hawaii out of "tiki".



Really?

I heard there's a certain book about Tiki in Waikiki (Oahu) that seems pretty well received around here and one or two respected authors were kind enough to provide a quote for the back cover. Let me see if I can find a copy...






as I said, (either in this thread or another) this forum (and by extension, the "tiki" movement in general) seems tilted about 70% low brow enthusiasts, where tiki is just something to put on the back of a skateboard, and about 30% who are more into the original concept of tiki.


Perhaps you are in that 30%.
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White Devil
Deleted

Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Posts: 0
Posted: 2013-10-22 06:43 am   Permalink

Quote:
...with no concern as to authenticity.. . . .



I think this cuts to the crux of it, for many of us. The very "exotic" essence that drew each of us into Tiki is its sense of being from another time & place, perhaps even from a more authentic way of life than what our own culture provides us. But rediscovery and origination are completely separate considerations, and no matter how shallow our introduction to tiki may have been (culturally or individually), it shouldn't occlude the more authentic from our common acceptance of what is desirable.



    
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2013-10-22 07:40 am   Permalink

That's very true, WD.

For some like me, growing up in boring suburbia makes one yearn for something "different" and "exotic"...then you find that there actually is a design aesthetic that embraces it, and it's also from the mid-century and manages to tap into some ancient almost ancestral memory....

Growing up in southern calif, it was impossible to not see and be exposed to the numerous apartments, motels and old restaurants that were tiki inspired, and wonder what inspired them....

And then there is something to be said, irrespective of time period, for good craftmanship and great music. Apart from the Kitsche factor, I actually like the music of Denny, Baxter and Lyman VERY much and I liked it way before the 90's swing/cocktail revival. I also like the look of a well made tiki mug. I like the look of bamboo, and fish floats, etc...I like all of it.

I even like the fact that, should I come across some decrepit old run-down tiki themed motel, the ancient plaster and concrete and fiberglass is in NO way authentic polynesian. It's easy to close my eyes and imagine that it IS authentic. Everyone knows that a real tropical lagoon does not contain clorine, or Koi fish. Likewise, when we order "Hula" chicken made with "polynesian" sweet and sour sauce, that it is nothing like eating breadfruit or poi, or fish with tons of bones in them. I know that in the jungle, there are no saxaphones, and that the ideophones do not have rotors attached to make a tremelo effect. I also know that in any typical jungle or tropical enviroment, you are unlikely to find groupings of ornamental, tropical foliage arranged as they are in Anaheim, California. I really dig the "fakeness" of all of it, but I also dig the authentic cultures all of this was inspired by. It's pure escapism for me, but escapism married with the pursuit of knowledge. Being into tiki, absolutely makes me want to travel to the real jungle some day.


 
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tikiskip
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Nov 26, 2005
Posts: 2848
Posted: 2013-10-22 07:48 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-21 21:33, LostIsland wrote:
I've even had Hawaiian natives contact me on the mainland to buy Tiki stuff. It seemed strange that they couldn't find what they wanted without ordering from me.
[ This Message was edited by: LostIsland 2013-10-21 21:34 ]



When my wife and I went to Hawaii years ago it was hard to find any tiki to buy.
And most of the tiki we did see were made by Bosko, these were not for sale as they were store décor.
Did find a guy who was at the large tree at IMP only on Wednesdays.



 
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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2013-10-22 07:58 am   Permalink

of course there is no tiki in hawaii right now. There is methamphetamine "ice" and Reggae music. When I lived there in the 80s, it was all about Heavy Metal.

But had you gone to Waikiki in 1960s or 1970s, it would have been a whole different thing. You would have found plenty of tiki....(albeit, probably shipped there by WITCO and Oceanic Arts.....)


 
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porco
Tiki Centralite

Joined: Mar 26, 2012
Posts: 74
Posted: 2013-10-22 08:49 am   Permalink

Some interesting perspective from one of the patrons at our newly opened bar:

"The drinks were bland in color and bland in taste . I go to Hawaii every year and not one of the drinks we tried were even close, even the Mai Tai."

"You should see my house, you'd think you were in Hawaii. I was hoping for some really cool decor, but was disappointed. I didn't see any authentic tikis or anything old Hawaiian."

Now just to give some perspective, every one of our classic cocktails are made at (or as close as possible with available ingredients) to the Bum's specs. All juices are squeezed daily, all syrups, falernum, orgeat, etc... are house made. Yes, we do not have many carved tikis, but there are a few scattered about. I get that the outrigger, lamps, fixtures, and abundant bamboo from the Kon Tiki, chairs from the Mai Kai & Chin Tiki, might not scream "classic Hawaii", but to say it's not cool? Come on!

We're new, have a long way to go in terms of establishing ourselves, and are by no means perfect. Mind you, this is the first and only "negative" criticism we've received or heard of in our short two weeks of being open. It's just interesting that it comes from someone that considers themselves a "tiki" enthusiast,

That is not to say they're right or wrong in what they believe or enjoy as "tiki". We want everyone to be happy, but know that isn't going to be possible in every case. All we can do is put out a quality product, try to provide a fun, authentic, and original atmosphere, and hope that the public at large agrees with what we're doing.

So far, so good.


 
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11192
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2013-10-22 09:24 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-22 06:08, lucas vigor wrote:
Look Sven, you have your own opinion, and you are entitled to it...please allow me to also have an opinion, even if it is different then yours. I admire the work you have done on tiki, I own both BOT and Tiki Modern, and love them....but you don't own tiki, ok?



Exactly, all I can do is voice my OPINION here - like everybody else is. If my opinion comes with good arguments that corroborate my points, that is still not equal to me saying "I own Tiki".

I am fine with your opinion concerning the importance of Hapa Haole, but I feel you are overreacting if you allude to me having declared some kind of complete BAN on Hapa Haole and all things from Hawaii in Tiki: I have not! You are misunderstanding me if you believe that.

Regarding my CD, I feel that Paul Page has elements of Hapa Haole, and so do The Surfers. But its heavily mainland-styled Hapa Haole, not the pure Hawaiian kind - the heyday of which happened in the Pre-Tiki period.



 
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Phillip Roberts
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Sep 09, 2003
Posts: 1603
From: OAHU/Seattle
Posted: 2013-10-22 09:29 am   Permalink

Aloha,
Quote:

On 2013-10-22 07:58, lucas vigor wrote:
of course there is no tiki in hawaii right now.



OK, now you are just being silly.

265 pages say different and that's just on Oahu. Yes, the loss of the International Market Place, Tahitian Lanai, and others means less but... La Mariana, Tiki's and a number of other Grills use the decor we love. There is decoration of a Polynesian manner in most hotels and resorts. Even Disney's Aulani resort is modeled on the Wimberly and Cook design of the main lobby at the Coco Palms. The Tahiti Nui and (now) Tiki Iniki on Kauai got stuffs. I haven't even mentioned the home bars.
Quote:

There is methamphetamine "ice"


and there isn't in LA and other parts of America? Please!
Quote:

...and Reggae music. When I lived there in the 80s, it was all about Heavy Metal.



There's reggae, metal and even punk everywhere INCLUDING Hawaii.

Were you aware of the Waitiki 7 playing exotica with the Hawaii Youth Symphony and Jimmy Borges later this week? Want Hapa Haole tunes? Look no further than the Halekulani nightly at Sunset.
Quote:


But had you gone to Waikiki in 1960s or 1970s, it would have been a whole different thing. You would have found plenty of tiki...

(albeit, probably shipped there by WITCO and Oceanic Arts.....)




Yes, some of that and also much made by Edward M. Brownlee, Tavana and many other talented sculptors. As well as imported items from the South Pacific by Spence Weaver (Spencecliff) and Don the Beachcomber himself.

Gecko even makes Tiki Mugs just like companies Terra Ceramics, Polynesian Pottery and others...

No Tiki? Think again.
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Available now from
Bess Press Hawaii.

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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2013-10-22 09:43 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-22 09:24, bigbrotiki wrote:
Quote:

On 2013-10-22 06:08, lucas vigor wrote:
Look Sven, you have your own opinion, and you are entitled to it...please allow me to also have an opinion, even if it is different then yours. I admire the work you have done on tiki, I own both BOT and Tiki Modern, and love them....but you don't own tiki, ok?



Regarding my CD, I feel that Paul Page has elements of Hapa Haole, and so do The Surfers. But its heavily mainland-styled Hapa Haole, not the pure Hawaiian kind - the heyday of which happened in the Pre-Tiki period.





There seems to be two types of hapa haole music....some of it is pre-tiki, and yes, most of the later stuff also had it's origin in the pre-tiki time period. I actually don't prefer the scratchy, old 20s/30s version of hapa haole...in fact, that is the type of hapa haole that The Sweet Hollywaiians seem to focus on.

The hapa haole that I most associate with tiki is more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqZS317lXhs

so, it comes from a later time period, has professional sound quality and jazzy arrangements. To me, that is the sound of tiki....most definitely.

The song I just posted, and that particular recording, can currently be heard in the entrance area of the Tiki Room at Disneyland.


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lucas vigor
Tiki Socialite

Joined: May 12, 2004
Posts: 3985
From: SOCAL
Posted: 2013-10-22 09:51 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-22 09:29, Phillip Roberts wrote:
Aloha,
Quote:

On 2013-10-22 07:58, lucas vigor wrote:
of course there is no tiki in hawaii right now.



OK, now you are just being silly.

265 pages say different and that's just on Oahu. Yes, the loss of the International Market Place, Tahitian Lanai, and others means less but... La Mariana, Tiki's and a number of other Grills use the decor we love. There is decoration of a Polynesian manner in most hotels and resorts. Even Disney's Aulani resort is modeled on the Wimberly and Cook design of the main lobby at the Coco Palms. The Tahiti Nui and (now) Tiki Iniki on Kauai got stuffs. I haven't even mentioned the home bars.
Quote:

There is methamphetamine "ice"


and there isn't in LA and other parts of America? Please!
Quote:

...and Reggae music. When I lived there in the 80s, it was all about Heavy Metal.



There's reggae, metal and even punk everywhere INCLUDING Hawaii.

Were you aware of the Waitiki 7 playing exotica with the Hawaii Youth Symphony and Jimmy Borges later this week? Want Hapa Haole tunes? Look no further than the Halekulani nightly at Sunset.
Quote:


But had you gone to Waikiki in 1960s or 1970s, it would have been a whole different thing. You would have found plenty of tiki...

(albeit, probably shipped there by WITCO and Oceanic Arts.....)




Yes, some of that and also much made by Edward M. Brownlee, Tavana and many other talented sculptors. As well as imported items from the South Pacific by Spence Weaver (Spencecliff) and Don the Beachcomber himself.

Gecko even makes Tiki Mugs just like companies Terra Ceramics, Polynesian Pottery and others...

No Tiki? Think again.




Mr. Roberts, you seem to be determined to rip my argument to shreds. Sad, really, since I happen to be a big fan of you.
I was merely echoing (ironically) the statements of other that there is little we associate with "tiki" left in hawaii. That is totaly true, despite your protestations. In Sven Kirsten's BOT, he mentions that Tiki is truly a mainland phenomena. I agree, and I also disagree.....and I have stated it really depends on where you are coming from. If you are a low-brow tiki artist, it seems you are more into the mainland version. If you are the sort that associate Tiki with the tourist-ty hawaiian luau as shown in the brady bunch or Elvis movies, then you ackkowledge BOTH.

To both Sven and Phillip....are you not reading my posts clearly? I happen to agree with BOTH of you, like with 95% of what you say....it's that remaining 5% I am discussing.

Please, both of you, ask yourself a question. You have been to tiki oasis, and other events.....the crowd is more and more rockabilly/surf/punk/goth/garage rock every day, and less the typical luau crowd.....don't you see it happening? Going to some of these events, more and more the crowd is very similar to the crowd at any car show in southern california. And as a result, more and more artists (and bands) are catering to that demographic......
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11192
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2013-10-22 09:56 am   Permalink

I personally like 40s and 50s "funny" Hapa Haole best, just like I like Swing music, and Western Swing.

Your U-Tube example is cool, but to me it kind of relates to the genre like 60s Big Band music relates to the original Swing of the 40s: It's the old guy's sound. Not that that is bad, it's its own kind of cool, which I can dig also. But I think the "new kids on the block" in Tiki Poly Pop, like Steve Crane and the Thornton Brothers, would have viewed it as the "old veterans' sound", like Don The Beachcomber and Skipper Kent - aka the Pre-Tiki generation.


 
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bigbrotiki
Tiki Socialite

Joined: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 11192
From: Tiki Island, above the Silverlake
Posted: 2013-10-22 10:10 am   Permalink

Quote:

On 2013-10-22 09:51, lucas vigor wrote:
Please, both of you, ask yourself a question. You have been to tiki oasis, and other events.....the crowd is more and more rockabilly/surf/punk/goth/garage rock every day, and less the typical luau crowd.....don't you see it happening? Going to some of these events, more and more the crowd is very similar to the crowd at any car show in southern california. And as a result, more and more artists (and bands) are catering to that demographic......



Well here is a point that I can certainly agree on. The sad fact is that by 90% of the party and club crowd, Hapa Haole would be viewed as a "mood killer". And so would be Exotica.

To return to the original question of this thread: Tiki to me is about art appreciation and concepts of the exotic first, and about partying and drinking somewhere down the line. But that's just me, and while I have many sympathizers, we are not in the majority. I am fine with that.


 
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